VtwinVince Posted October 28, 2008 Share Posted October 28, 2008 Vinland, there are countless fakes floating around with COA's from various reputable dealers. I have never, in over thirty years of collecting, seen a Poellath-produced badge such as the one you show. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ferg1 Posted October 28, 2008 Share Posted October 28, 2008 Hi,thanks for posting the pictures of this badge. I have seen one of these cut out / PLM mark before with a prussian crown and Juncker mark. I am dubious about this badge in as much as the usual gripe I bang on about, that is the ' spokeless wheel ' on one wheel of the undercarriage of the aircraft. I have written this so many times that everyone is probably getting sick to death of it but anyway.... Everytime,or almost everytime one encounters a Bavarian pilot badge for sale/auction ,whatever ,it is one of these 'spokeless wheel ' types. I have seen hundreds (well lots and lots) of them over the years and very few types with spokes in both wheels. This second type I show a picture of earlier in this thread. These are hard to find and expensive .i.e. real period badges. I guess ,at best there is a nucleus of the spokeless badges which are real 20's or 30's re-issue pieces but i feel the majority of them are formed copies or out and out fakes. After having my twopence worth let me say that the cutting out of the aircraft detail in this shown badge looks laser cut, certainly does not look hand cut and chased. Just my opinions,nothing personel !! Ferg1. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VINLAND30 Posted October 28, 2008 Share Posted October 28, 2008 Vinland, there are countless fakes floating around with COA's from various reputable dealers. I have never, in over thirty years of collecting, seen a Poellath-produced badge such as the one you show.Really could it be a jewlers copy period 1918 ?? I can't find any refernce either anywhere? Is the name stamped correctly? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric Stahlhut Posted October 28, 2008 Share Posted October 28, 2008 (edited) Really could it be a jewlers copy period 1918 ?? I can't find any refernce either anywhere? Is the name stamped correctly?this hallmark has been used on fakes other than pilot badges, so you should not under any circumstances use it as a guide.please refer to my recent thread concerning an 1866 bavarian medical cross.btw, why is the recipient's name taped over? just curious Edited October 28, 2008 by Eric Stahlhut Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VINLAND30 Posted October 28, 2008 Share Posted October 28, 2008 this hallmark has been used on fakes other than pilot badges, so you should not under any circumstances use it as a guide.please refer to my recent thread concerning an 1866 bavarian medical cross.btw, why is the recipient's name taped over? just curiousI taped over his name because I don't want people bad mouthing my friends badge if they don't like it because he paid allot for it the recipient was a famous ace pilot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric Stahlhut Posted October 28, 2008 Share Posted October 28, 2008 I taped over his name because I don't want people bad mouthing my friends badge if they don't like it because he paid allot for it the recipient was a famous ace pilot.understandeable. but you have to realize that there aren't too many like these floating around (real or fake) so the taping of the name is a moot point, imo. plus, plenty of fellow collectors may have already seen this if it came from a major reputable auction house that provides coa's, no?just a thought. :cat: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VINLAND30 Posted October 28, 2008 Share Posted October 28, 2008 understandeable. but you have to realize that there aren't too many like these floating around (real or fake) so the taping of the name is a moot point, imo. plus, plenty of fellow collectors may have already seen this if it came from a major reputable auction house that provides coa's, no?just a thought. You are correct in what you say but it was 3 years + ago. I am sure many have seen it and yes they wrote a C.O.A. with it.Have you ever seen a cut out Bavarian pilots badge with a PLM on the back before? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric Stahlhut Posted October 28, 2008 Share Posted October 28, 2008 no, i have not. but i have seen plenty of dubious c/k poellath/pollath hallmark strikes. yours seems to read 'ssiber', but perhaps that may be due to the photo angle?is it possible to get a better view?the strike should be crisp, clean, and entirely legible for starters.thank you in advance! :cheers: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VINLAND30 Posted October 28, 2008 Share Posted October 28, 2008 no, i have not. but i have seen plenty of dubious c/k poellath/pollath hallmark strikes. yours seems to read 'ssiber', but perhaps that may be due to the photo angle?is it possible to get a better view?the strike should be crisp, clean, and entirely legible for starters.thank you in advance! The word silber is double struck Carl Poellath (schrob)enhausen (SSIBERRR) double struck?? Jewler miss rest is crisp but schrrob and ssiberrr is double stuck was this common all letters are deep Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VtwinVince Posted October 28, 2008 Share Posted October 28, 2008 This badge, aside from being unusual, does not display any of the known characteristics of genuine Poellath-made badges. Unless your friend obtained this from the family of the reputed recipient, I would be highly skeptical. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VINLAND30 Posted October 29, 2008 Share Posted October 29, 2008 (edited) This badge, aside from being unusual, does not display any of the known characteristics of genuine Poellath-made badges. Unless your friend obtained this from the family of the reputed recipient, I would be highly skeptical.He purchased the badge from a U.S. Auction House 4 years ago it came with a C.O.A. no other info.The pilot killed himself in 1918 after Germany lost the war.Does any one know if cut out badges were common in 1918 or is it a family piece? It appears to be finely filed and cut out.What was the purpose of cutting out the badge is it post humous? The PLM has soder marks from the torch over it so it is not a badge engraved later it was done all at once I assume.Did pilots get a cut out badge when they won the PLM? Did they have PLM's engraved on their badges during the war.Is there any information on Poellath hallmarks? I wish I knew more? Have you seen any cut out badges before with PLM's on them? Thank you for your information and for your input. Edited October 29, 2008 by VINLAND30 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VINLAND30 Posted October 30, 2008 Share Posted October 30, 2008 He purchased the badge from a U.S. Auction House 4 years ago it came with a C.O.A. no other info.The pilot killed himself in 1918 after Germany lost the war.Does any one know if cut out badges were common in 1918 or is it a family piece? It appears to be finely filed and cut out.What was the purpose of cutting out the badge is it post humous? The PLM has soder marks from the torch over it so it is not a badge engraved later it was done all at once I assume.Did pilots get a cut out badge when they won the PLM? Did they have PLM's engraved on their badges during the war.Is there any information on Poellath hallmarks? I wish I knew more? Have you seen any cut out badges before with PLM's on them? Thank you for your information and for your input.Could this be a one of a kind custom ordered badge?? Possibly ? I don't know about the family history because no one will tell me any info on it at the auction house because of their privacy policy to protect the buyer. Did other aces have cut outs? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VtwinVince Posted October 30, 2008 Share Posted October 30, 2008 I assume you're referring to Fritz Ritter von Roeth, 28 victories and suicide on the last day of 1918. Honestly, unless this came from his estate, which it did not, I would not want it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VINLAND30 Posted October 30, 2008 Share Posted October 30, 2008 I assume you're referring to Fritz Ritter von Roeth, 28 victories and suicide on the last day of 1918. Honestly, unless this came from his estate, which it did not, I would not want it. No one says anything negative about it's qualities so why do so many people think if it did not come from his estate directly it is undesirable?No one to date has pointed out one negative thing about the piece they just all say the same thing? Why? Is it because it is such a rare piece no one can make a comment good or bad? Did Carl Poellath make custom cut out badges or not? They must have because here is one. No one has given me that answer .Thank you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VINLAND30 Posted October 31, 2008 Share Posted October 31, 2008 I agree with Stogieman, this is a modern copy......some will be chemically aged...this one is not. The chemical aging makes them easier to detect. Cut-outs were made as private purchase badges but are exceptionally rare!Do you have a photo of a cut out badge please if you have one post it.Thank you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dond Posted October 31, 2008 Share Posted October 31, 2008 If you scroll back thru the thread and read the replies you will find several reasons why it is not good. You are already on the way to healing though, denial being the first step. Sorry to see you got taken. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STP Posted October 31, 2008 Share Posted October 31, 2008 One of the more obvious reasons it is likely not original has a lot to do with the maker mark. Not the strike of the name as such, but the way it is placed to accommodate the cutout. This "badge" is "sooped-up" in many respects. If this badge were original, the maker mark would be lost in the cut, or located on he pin. It is a more than a stretch to assume the maker would restrike the piece, as if it were brought back to the factory for such purposes. Just would not happen. Next, you have the version of the badge which contains the "story." And what better can one do than to claim a PLM recipient. Not only engrave his name but remind him as well with a PLM motif. So the redundancy is purely theatre. As Ferg mentioned, it looks laser cut. So I guess I'm piling on. SP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VINLAND30 Posted October 31, 2008 Share Posted October 31, 2008 If you scroll back thru the thread and read the replies you will find several reasons why it is not good. You are already on the way to healing though, denial being the first step. Sorry to see you got taken.They said that cut outs were rare and custom ordered no one has said why this badge does not look correct or pointed out what was wrong with it as far as I have understood.They just say they would not like it.Thanks for your input can you tell me any solid reasons why there would be something wrong with this piece please? I am not in denial I appreciate and accept all or any opinions and thank you for yours.The center has file marks and does not look laser cut this piece sold some years ago for thousands and there were several bidders on it I still belive in it but every one has their opinion and I am open to hear them all and take any critique people want to voice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VINLAND30 Posted October 31, 2008 Share Posted October 31, 2008 One of the more obvious reasons it is likely not original has a lot to do with the maker mark. Not the strike of the name as such, but the way it is placed to accommodate the cutout. This "badge" is "sooped-up" in many respects. If this badge were original, the maker mark would be lost in the cut, or located on he pin. It is a more than a stretch to assume the maker would restrike the piece, as if it were brought back to the factory for such purposes. Just would not happen. Next, you have the version of the badge which contains the "story." And what better can one do than to claim a PLM recipient. Not only engrave his name but remind him as well with a PLM motif. So the redundancy is purely theatre. As Ferg mentioned, it looks laser cut. So I guess I'm piling on. SPThank you very much for taking the time to point out these issues it is very interesting to say the least. One thing I noticed though was that there is sodering burn for the clasp hook over the PLM engraving wich I belive the whole piece was created at once including the engraving and the assembly of the badge but this is only a theory.You have very interesting points of view and observations which I have not considered.Just one last question? Did a cut out badge from the period ever exist or are there any known examples? Is there any documentation or photographs of one being worn? I read that one person had seen a cutout worn by a pilot that was period? Did the factory make the badges? I thought jewlers made them in limited runs.So would they order a completed badge from the factory and then put their name on it? If this was special order is their still the possibility that it being done all at once that it was a special order piece from Poellath? It is my last and final question as I see people may have grown tired of this discussion but I thank every one who gave their opinoins and input to this post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VINLAND30 Posted October 31, 2008 Share Posted October 31, 2008 One of the more obvious reasons it is likely not original has a lot to do with the maker mark. Not the strike of the name as such, but the way it is placed to accommodate the cutout. This "badge" is "sooped-up" in many respects. If this badge were original, the maker mark would be lost in the cut, or located on he pin. It is a more than a stretch to assume the maker would restrike the piece, as if it were brought back to the factory for such purposes. Just would not happen. Next, you have the version of the badge which contains the "story." And what better can one do than to claim a PLM recipient. Not only engrave his name but remind him as well with a PLM motif. So the redundancy is purely theatre. As Ferg mentioned, it looks laser cut. So I guess I'm piling on. SPIf it is laser cut it is not very clean nor even it looks more like it was cut with a heated instrument or tool which would be heated far above silvers melting point which would make sense for the period unless they had a fine torch ? a laser cuts allot cleaner than this I have dealt with lasers in my work.This appears too primitive and unclean to be cut by laser but I am not a jewler it is just my oberservation.Thank you again Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VINLAND30 Posted October 31, 2008 Share Posted October 31, 2008 One of the more obvious reasons it is likely not original has a lot to do with the maker mark. Not the strike of the name as such, but the way it is placed to accommodate the cutout. This "badge" is "sooped-up" in many respects. If this badge were original, the maker mark would be lost in the cut, or located on he pin. It is a more than a stretch to assume the maker would restrike the piece, as if it were brought back to the factory for such purposes. Just would not happen. Next, you have the version of the badge which contains the "story." And what better can one do than to claim a PLM recipient. Not only engrave his name but remind him as well with a PLM motif. So the redundancy is purely theatre. As Ferg mentioned, it looks laser cut. So I guess I'm piling on. SPMaybe in theory they marked the top to begin with because it was ordered from the factory to be used as a cut out this does not look like laser cuts to me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VINLAND30 Posted October 31, 2008 Share Posted October 31, 2008 (edited) Maybe in theory they marked the top to begin with because it was ordered from the factory to be used as a cut out this does not look like laser cuts to me Edited October 31, 2008 by VINLAND30 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VINLAND30 Posted October 31, 2008 Share Posted October 31, 2008 How and why would some one laser cut this it is silver ? There are no laser cut examples like this that look like this that anyone has shown to date here that I have seen where is the proff? Photos where are the rest with PLM's where is a period one with a PLM does any one have any photographic proff or comparisons please.I still think this piece is 100% despite all the nej sayers.Lets see photos if anyone disputes this? Thank you every one for your opinions and time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VINLAND30 Posted November 1, 2008 Share Posted November 1, 2008 Hi Mike,Not sure what I said to make you think I liked it at all. Quite the contrary. Was just pointing out that it was not a similar badge than the one I originally posted and was wondering if anyone had seen others out there like the one in the link. LeeThis one is like it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VINLAND30 Posted November 1, 2008 Share Posted November 1, 2008 There's absolutely no way to determine anything from the tiny image posted. There's been several badges that have appeared over the years with a PLM (and other spurious) engraving(s) to the reverse. I have yet to see a single one that I would consider consistent with any period badge I have owned, inspected or fondled. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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