A Fake MVOx bar............

[Ulsterman]

I bought this bar yesterday as a fake made a fraudmaker in Austria who mixes originals and new medals.

Rick and I perused it thoroughly. The MVOx is marked for silver content with some remains of silver wash.

The LS 18 is magnetic as is the LS 4.

The EK2,HKx and Austrian merit cross are all undoubted originals.

The thread used to sew it on the bar is Wehrmacht grey. The ribbons do not glow (except for the rabbit fur that has recently attached to the bar).

What do YOU think is wrong with this bar? Sorry about the really bad scans.

Edited September 8, 2008 by Ulsterman

[Ulsterman]

Sorry about the poor scans-I am a victim of a scanner that is not an Epson.

I forgot to add, the bar shows uniform wear, smells old and the MVOx has a few wear scuffs from the EK2 on the enamel-as does the Austrian service cross.

The back:

[saschaw]

If that one is bad... outch...

I cannot see anything I don't like, looks to me like a perfectly good 1936/38 Wehrmacht bar...

[Claudio]

From this bad photos, the front looks nicely constructed and the ribbons professionally folded... better pictures and a close up of the needle-pin system on the back would enable specialists and enthusiast collectors of medal bars like me to better assest this bar.

Ciao,

Claudio

[Ulsterman]

Yeah- I know Claudio, I tried, i really did, but that's about as good as I can get unless I uninstall this "scan wizard" my wife installed and get a new scanner. Sorry.

However, Rick handled it a great deal. He can give more intimate details.

Oh-and the ribbons are stiff too.

Edited September 8, 2008 by Ulsterman

[Guest Rick Research]

My 20 year old blacklight had finally died on me AT the show, so I could not blacklight the ribbons...

but I looked that one over and over and

NO issues for me other than the loose thin backing material that is not sewn along the reverse bottom.

Looks and feels like an absolutely original bar to me too-- with perhaps a mothy backing replaced, but nothing else.

I suspect the Master Criminal got confused and slipped up, shipping one of his ORIGINAL vivisection victims-to be in with the crap. And crap we did indeed see-- smeared motor oil "age" and other horrors.

If I didn't already have everything on this bar, it would have come home with me. Not a Bavarian I suspect, since the 18 years Wehrmacht and early war BMV4X suggest to me an (E) officer with 18 years time in by 1939-- and no Luitpold Jubilee, so not a native Bavarian. Impossible to identify the owner, other than that he was certainly an Oberst (S) by the end of the Second war.

Sometimes a "fake"... isn't. :catjava:

[Stogieman]

In don't believe this to be a fake. The ribbon folding and stitching is consistent with original bars. NOT with the modern gouvna coming out of Austria and Texas

[Schießplatzmeister]

Hello everyone:

This bar looks perfectly fine. The only problem to note is...."The MVOx is marked for silver content with some remains of silver wash".

If the MVO is silver (ie, has content markings), then it should not have a "silver wash" or plating. Perhaps there was a clear coating and where this remains, the surfaces didn't tarnish????? What are the markings exactly, and what is there location?

This looks like an earlier piece with gold centers and multi-piece center medallions.

Best regards,

"SPM"

[Claudio]

The MVO4x should be ok; they were always made of Silver (see markings on the reverse either on the swords or on the Ls holding the suspension ring or on the rim of the lower cross arm). The only thing that varied materially speaking, is the cyphers in the medallion, pre-war and early WWI types had a Golden medallion and later or cheaper variants had it in Silver gilted.

I think that it's by today's standards, it's far too expensive to fake completely a MVO4. I do know that some "specialists" have already improved chipped crosses, repair the enamel, but it's quite impossible to reproduce a nice translucent vibrant blue enamel color. What you see very often is that the swords are taken off, in order to artificially increase the value of the MVO4, since the MVO without swords, the real ones, are much rarer than the MVO4x.

Again, from the picture is quite difficult to tell, but my gut's feeling says that this MVO4x is a good one... this particular class wansn't so rare and was frequently awarded also to Non-Bavarian officers (about 24'000 MVO4x have been awarded during WWI).

Ciao,

Claudio

[Ulsterman]

Well, thanks chaps-

I posted this as the seller (Kelly), a nice elderly chap who sells only in reproductions, swore blind to me that it was a repro, that is perhaps containing a few original medals, but bought by him and sold as is where is as a repro.. Kelly is forthcoming with what he sells-and to whom. Some big dealer names have been mentioned and he also is quite up-front about past bulk ribbon bar purchases.

I posted it here not only for reassurance but also as a warning. If this really is a modern re-sewn bar (using older medals), then there is an Austrian guy out there who is a medal bar artist and like Rick said in the Lowell parking lot, 'it's time to give this hobby up'.

Kelly's other stuff is instructive and he is quite willing to tell how and where he makes and sells his wares.

This bar was purportedly made in Austria by a "craftsman" who is presently undergoing some sort of personal crisis. Kelly has used him frequently in the past and interestingly, he is very fuzzy about prices. One of the awful oil stained bars he showed me had an original Lubeck cross on it along with a (very) fake Mecklenburg cross and a real HKx and probably a real EK2-price was $ 125: the sum of the parts is worth more than the bar.

The silver "wash" seems rather unpatinaed silver on the rear corner of the left flame. A light rub with a cotton removed much patina swiftly.

If this MVO4x is a fake I'll eat my hat, the quality is superb and there are some significant enamel scuffs from the EK2. I'd rate it VF only.

I suspected the LS 18 to be a repro, as it looked pristine, but having had it under a scope, one can see some serious wear along the left arm where it rubs against the Hkx. The only thing I really am now scrutinizing are the eagles, but frankly, with a real MVOx, I'm not that concerned.

One is left wondering about the LS 18 though which would date the bar to 1937/38. Even entering in 1918 and serving as an ace jr. Lt through the Reichsheer (I've i.d.ed 8 possible officers so far) this man would've had a 25 year cross by 1940 and probably a flower war medal or two.

You lot are the world experts ... so it appears as if the collecting angels were with me on Sunday.

A BIG THANK YOU to Rick (and Regina) who will get a free dinner out of this one.

Of course we'll never know for certain until a time machine is invented, but it seems I'm a lucky, lucky man.

Now to sell something Irish to pay for it and get my wife speaking to me again. :rolleyes:

Edited September 9, 2008 by Ulsterman

[Guest Rick Research]

In my paws no problems at all. I couldn't see the maker marks clearly on the backs of the BMV4X swords because it is mounted so tightly-- as are all the awards--but they were there. Those more interested in specific makers than awards will no doubt recognize the maker by the pierced crown cipher and large flames. Not Leser (my only maker obsesssion ) Wehrmacht eagles perfect... only that backing flap eh.

18s show as a pair for TWO types of officers: continuous service from 1915-39, or old retreads. This guy had an early war BMV4X, by which I would say he was NOT a young didn't make 25 by close off date in 1939 guy but an old retread.

This guy had 14 years or so in by when he was dumped out in 1920, and then 4 more coming back in 1935-ish. They are the worst to identify since they had nothing in the 1914 Rank Lists, disappear, and come back after awards ceased being printed.

Most likley went out as a Captain in 1920, back in as a Major in 1935, and was an Oberst by 1942 or so, from (E) to (S) status as a retread.