Guest Rick Research Posted November 1, 2005 Share Posted November 1, 2005 Aside from his askew toupee "look," reserve artillery Captain Mikhail Pavelovich Kameristy (pre-1946 stamp of a Krasnoarmeisky Raion Military Commissariat someplace, but no city and no date)is wearing BIZARRE pattern shoulder boards-- some sort of Tsarist recycling??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichieC Posted September 11, 2007 Share Posted September 11, 2007 (edited) Awakening an old, but fairly interesting theme, I am pleased to show this. I purchased a similar pair of (Frontier Guard) boards a few years back, and my most of my Russian associates were convinced that they were fantasy works and/or "theatre" recreations...It took a few weeks of intense discussion until a thoughtful and well knowing associate come up with these two periode images. The end hypothesis was their construction was either self or tailor made early afterwards the 1943 regulations "overhaul" using "Church Lace"... Edited September 11, 2007 by RichieC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichieC Posted September 11, 2007 Share Posted September 11, 2007 ...and my examples and a period image "backup": Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rick Research Posted September 11, 2007 Share Posted September 11, 2007 Even the exact same little "daisy" designs in the photo as in your boards! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric Gaumann Posted September 12, 2007 Share Posted September 12, 2007 Rick, would you mind if I copied and pasted your first image above into a thread I started at SMAP about images of early ribbon bars in wear please? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rick Research Posted September 12, 2007 Share Posted September 12, 2007 Sure, just say it is from my collection. Nothing worse than seeing one's own images reappear months or years later as "don't know where this came from off the internet" when every scan can easily be saved and renamed as "Weird Soviet boards Rick Research GMIC" or whatever.The more I look at that particular photo-- it looks like the material in his collar does not match the uniform cloth. I wonder if it was a pre-1943 tunic that had the fold-over collar removed and a M1943 stand up sewn in? He's got screw-holes for the Red Star over his right pocket and what must have been his early MMM above the ribbon bar. What would people think about such a tunic if it turned up, these days? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed_Haynes Posted September 12, 2007 Share Posted September 12, 2007 What would people think about such a tunic if it turned up, these days? We all know: The "Experts" would dismiss it out of hand as a fake (unless they happened to own one just like it). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichieC Posted September 12, 2007 Share Posted September 12, 2007 The more I look at that particular photo-- it looks like the material in his collar does not match the uniform cloth. I wonder if it was a pre-1943 tunic that had the fold-over collar removed and a M1943 stand up sewn in? He's got screw-holes for the Red Star over his right pocket and what must have been his early MMM above the ribbon bar. What would people think about such a tunic if it turned up, these days? Modifying pre 1943 uniforms to conform to 1943 orders seems to have been common practice, especially with Kitel and Gymnasterka blouses. There are quite a few images of examples, in period photo form, inside the newest Air Force uniform reference "Униформа Российского воздушного флота", том II".However, converting Model 1943 type uniforms back to pre and early war specifications is a practice that has only developed in the last ten years or so... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric Gaumann Posted September 12, 2007 Share Posted September 12, 2007 Sure, just say it is from my collection.Thanks Rick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daredevil Posted September 12, 2007 Share Posted September 12, 2007 here is a good example of a converted M1940 pullover; has M1943 insignia added, but still has the fold down M1940 collar. dd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichieC Posted September 13, 2007 Share Posted September 13, 2007 here is a good example of a converted M1940 pullover; has M1943 insignia added, but still has the fold down M1940 collar. dddd,This is the first time I have seen an authentic pre-1943 "pullover" without external pockets. Did only high ranking commanders use such a pattern? This is yet another subject that would be very interesting to learn more about.Respectfully,Richie C Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daredevil Posted September 13, 2007 Share Posted September 13, 2007 richie,Honestly, I do not know. I bought it from Shalito (it is in both of his books, though i suspect he added both boards; also, i do not think it ever had the collar tabs on it). I have had in Generals pullovers with both the internal and external pockets. However, these have mostly been M1943 pullovers; the M1940 pullovers for generals are pretty rare. The last one I had was for an artillery general and is in the webster/nelson book. That pullover is much more standard M1940 in construction; this one, other than the turndown collar, is almost identical to the M1943 design. The cap and belt were added just for the photo. I am not much for field stuff, but i thought this was pretty unique when i picked it up. I would love to see one that was a converted mundir. dd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rick Research Posted September 13, 2007 Share Posted September 13, 2007 Might as well lump all the oddities into this one thread.Here is a State Security Senior Lieutenant's board on a very strange M1943 Kitel which has DUMMY chest pocket flaps (no actual pockets! ) compared to an air force Technical Sr Lt's wartime board, to compare the braid patterns side by side:These were scanned sideways to prevent the blurred "shredded wheat" effect wiping out detail of the patterns, and then turned upright. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rick Research Posted September 13, 2007 Share Posted September 13, 2007 Maybe it is clearer in black and white without the distraction of the metallic glare:I have never seen another braid pattern like this State Security one (on left). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daredevil Posted September 13, 2007 Share Posted September 13, 2007 rick,sorry, there are no original photos of an NKVD officer wearing these boards so it MUST!!! be a fake, modern made example designed to fool those of us who do not know what we are doing : ) the fact its a perfectly good example should just be ignored!dd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daredevil Posted September 13, 2007 Share Posted September 13, 2007 richie,here is an original photo (i know you like these for authenticity purposes) of Major General Samonov wearing the M1940 pullover (i use this word instead of gymnastroika; hope thats ok with you), with external pockets and turndown collar. Hope the image helps you, as you say, in learning about this area; always eager to help out here in the open. ddps- sorry about the darkness of the photo, but i think the detail is still there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daredevil Posted September 13, 2007 Share Posted September 13, 2007 it actually ended up uploading better than i thought; the buttons are a bit different, but the collar is there (unless my eyes are really bad).dd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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