RAO 2. Klasse mit Eichenlaub

[Claudio]

Dear forumites,

I am posting a RAO 2nd class with oakleaves in Gold (OEK 1664). Since we already had a quite long thread about a RAO 3. Kl. mit Krone u. Schwertern I wanted to make sure that this is a good one and ask for your most appreciated comments on this cross...

Here's the cross...

Ciao,

Claudio

[medalnet]

Could you suply extreme close ups of the eagle painting and the oak leaf?

[Stogieman]

Hi Claudio, from the photograph, the cross looks fine and in excellent condition. I'd like to see a good clear photo of the back of the oakleaves, but more out of curiosity's sake... I don't see anything alarming to the front.

I know this series has been heavily reproduced and there are very high quality repros out there. My "gut call" based on the photos shown however is that this one should be fine. In hand examination of all seams, the cylinder, etc. are always advisable to be positive of what any piece is/is not.

[Guest Brian von Etzel]

I can't help you, the oaks don't match the Wagner type.

[Claudio]

@ Andreas und Stogie:

Here better scans of the medallion, obverse and reverse. I do not have this cross in front of me (my brother has) and he told me that the hand painting of the eagle looks almost like a "decal"... man! When I heard that it raised my hair... The cross itself with the Oakleaves and without the ribbon weights about 25,5 g. Nimmergut gives the weight of a 2nd class in Gold with Oakleaves 22.76 g.

[Claudio]

Details of the oakleaves....

What do you think??? Pleaaase help me!!!!

[Claudio]

better scans of the medallion...

Edited November 2, 2005 by Claudio

[Daniel Murphy]

The design of the eagle looks good. I have to say, and I hate to say this, but there does appear to be a clear outline visible around some parts of the eagle. This could be a very carefully painted clearcoat to protect the painted design, but it looks like a decal. If you had not mentioned it, I would have never seen it.

Dan Murphy

[Guest Brian von Etzel]

Is the lettering on the back chased?

[Stogieman]

For the benefit of all...... could Brian or Andreas give a brief explanation of the term "chased lettering"...... we might have some Ladies & Gentleman viewing who are not familiar with this term as it applies to orders. Thanks!

[Guest Brian von Etzel]

For the benefit of all...... could Brian or Andreas give a brief explanation of the term "chased lettering"...... we might have some Ladies & Gentleman viewing who are not familiar with this term as it applies to orders. Thanks!

Gold lettering is actually hit with tiny little chisels creating divets in the lettering. Time consuming and when done correctly adds more of a 3-D effect to the lettering or designs. Not something you'd likely see done correctly in my opinion by fakers. Also, in lieu of chasing you might see hand painting to show the same effect as chasing, not as brilliant as in chased gold, but can be very nice. Maybe Andreas has more to add.

If the example above is chased as it appears in the photo, it is unlikely in my mind this is a fake. If a fake, an amazingly well crafted fake and shows the extent to which they will go... But given prices, Euros per hour, probably a good return if you have the skills.

Edited November 2, 2005 by Brian von Etzel

[Stogieman]

Thanks Brian, excellent explanation. Now, to all, be careful, there's no shortage of fake PLM's floating about with "chased" lettering.... in fact, this is often pointed out by the sellers as some sort of "authenticity guarantee"........... Have not seen it done as skillfully as the piece shown by Claudio. Interesting with the gold (hollow) oaks... that's what I thought we would see!

[Guest Brian von Etzel]

Your fakes look like this, send them to me please. Here's an example of an RAO2XE.

[Guest Brian von Etzel]

...and before there was a RAO2XE there was an RAO on swords on ring and box. And chasing...

And WHY? So the RECIPIENT would enjoy it a little more. The back was NOT seen by the idle spectator. And THAT makes it all a little more spectacular.

Edited November 3, 2005 by Brian von Etzel

[Guest Brian von Etzel]

RAO w Swords and Bow on Ring

Spectacular I think. My grandfather must have been so proud to wear these.

More design for you to compare.

[Guest Brian von Etzel]

I ONLY just realized this, the CROWN IS CHASED on the RAO2XE.

Edited November 3, 2005 by Brian von Etzel

[Bob Hunter]

Handsome examples, Brian. Thanks for the clarification.

[medalnet]

...no nothing to add. well explained.

Let me maybe add as a general comment that there is a new series of fakes of the Red Eagle Order coming to the market. This one looks very similar to those I had in hand.

The painting resembles those pieces made by either "Humbert & Sohn" or "Hanf & Zimmerman" during the 1850th, just like this one. Certainly one of the best fakes of imperial German orders I have seen so far.

[medalnet]

Here the originanl Hanf & Zimmerman:

[Guest Brian von Etzel]

Claudio, can you confirm it IS a decal? This would explain the great impression of a painting of the original. Is the back chased? Nice touch if it is and no doubt if a fake by the same folks who made the PLMs Rick saw. We should expose this one if a fake.

[Stogieman]

Well, it would seem we have something new to be concerned with.... there should not be a decal-like outline around the eagle and I don't think a ~3g. difference in a gold cross to be acceptable.... Not sure where to go with this one....

[Guest Brian von Etzel]

I hope we're not done here yet people. I am not convinced we have chased and intricate reverse characteristics and a decal on the front.

Here for example is the Meissen factory's method for painting their most famous blue onion design dishes. Pictures from many years ago. Not a decal but a stencil if you will first laid out.

We don't know how the medals were painted but I'd guess this technique was used to lay out the general characteristics.

Then, if used a shadow could have been made around the 'stencil'.

The oak looked weird to me because I'm used to a Wagner oak on both the RAO and the PlM but it's too soon to throw this out people. Notice the 'overspray' of the dust around the edges of the foil which will be painted over or removed.

Common sense tells me artists were not free-handing these but had some sort of starting point just as the very experienced Meissen artists had experience but still utilized a stencil.

Edited November 4, 2005 by Brian von Etzel

[Guest Brian von Etzel]

Notice just a LITTLE similarity between the one Claudio showed and the one Andreas showed?

Edited November 4, 2005 by Brian von Etzel

[Stogieman]

No, I think the 2 eagles are very different. I did not toss the piece, only expressed concern and a question as to where do we go from here. I still stand on my initial "gut call" that it's probably OK. Having said all of this, I'm still more leery with Andreas reporting a new series of fakes.

[Guest Brian von Etzel]

20 years difference in age can make a huge difference in types of painting.

Just because someone says he's seen good fakes does not make me more leery. I've heard too much of that in the RK world. "I saw fakes in 1981." Show me the bacon, don't tell me about the smell.