WW1 Bavarian Named Cut out Bavarian Pilots Badge with PLM engraved

[VINLAND30]

This is my friends WW1 Bavarian Ace named pilots badge with his PLM engraved on the back of the badge and it is cut out. It comes with a C.O.A. from a reputable auction house.Some one said there were no cut out badges here is one and it has the PLM and the maker.I though all should see this rare find it was purchased in 2005 at auction.This must be rare one of a kind unless some one else has one because I can not find any information on it? Does anyone know about these rare pieces?

[VINLAND30]

This is my friends WW1 Bavarian Ace named pilots badge with his PLM engraved on the back of the badge and it is cut out. It comes with a C.O.A. from a reputable auction house.Some one said there were no cut out badges here is one and it has the PLM and the maker.I though all should see this rare find it was purchased in 2005 at auction.This must be rare one of a kind unless some one else has one because I can not find any information on it? Does anyone know about these rare pieces?

[VINLAND30]

Here is the maker also

[VINLAND30]

The workmanship is astounding

[Stogieman]

copy, fantasy, utter rubbish

Do you really need to post the same badge in five (5) different threads???

[VINLAND30]

copy, fantasy, utter rubbish

Do you really need to post the same badge in five (5) different threads???

This is my last comment on this badge and post but I really belive you are incorrect and are not an authority on this one particular badge in my opinion there are too many self proclaimed experts here and others who are knowlegable.I will not post this badge again nor any more items here.There were over 46 bidders on this badge when it sold at auction and it came with a C.O.A. from a large aucition house it sold for near $5.800. So 46 bidders all thought it was right but you say fantasy(rubbish?) ( I won't comment on your items you have sold out of respect) ok that is your opinion but I think you are 100% wrong no one points out what it wrong with it no auctuall details at all that are factual just that it is wrong or it is fantasy but no facts no details.Why did no one tell the other guy his badge was bad or did they do that and then try to buy it privatly LOL? In fact I think the only real authority on the matter would be the German Museum.The majority of the chat in this forum is pure speculation and self worked opinions factual evidence is what people need which seldom comes forward as I see.Have a good evening and good luck with collecting and selling.

[Ferg1]

Well Mr Vinland, you have failed to notice that I commented on this badge as soon as you posted the pictures and stated that the badge was a 'Spokeless wheel ' type of which there are hundreds doing the rounds . ( I counted seven at present on various sites). If you care to read my thread properly you will understand my concerns about the badge. People on this site are not self opinionated or making statements that are plucked out of the air ,I for one have studied this avenue of collecting for many years and find your statements insulting and at best naive. I suspect that you have bought the badge yourself rather than belonging to a friend so you are defending your purchase. Well my opinion stands that it is dubious in origin ,if nothing else from the quantity of these types around. Ferg1.

[jaba1914]

I think its absurd to discuss this badge. The bavarian badges are a mine field. I think no one can definitely say what is genuine what private purchase and what is a post war production and wich one is modern make. If someone like his badge and think is genuine, so what. There are a lot of assertions but no facts.

For me i don't buy any bavarian aviation badges more, only they come directly from the family and it looks good in me eyes.

@VINLAND30

If you and your friend like this badge it's OK. Not all people share the same opinon but if you feel confident its your problem.

Regards Alex

[Kev in Deva]

VINLAND 30,

If you ask for opinions and receive one that you do not like, well then, whats the point in asking in the first place?

And it would be nice to keep a civil tone when posting replies to members

who do not agree with your assessment of the item.

Also, why did you cover up the engraving on the back of the item?

Is it possible this information would lead to others thinking or even confirming the item is a repro / fantasy badge?

Your friend would not be the only person fooled by items such as these,

its getting more common to find dubious items even with "C.O.A. from a large aucition house," nowadays.

But if he (your friend) is happy with his "treasure" then all's well.

Kevin in Deva. :beer:

Edited November 1, 2008 by Kev in Deva

[Naxos]

A month after the end of WWI Friedrich Roth committed suicide in Nuremberg on New Year's Eve 1918. Depression and guilt (Post Traumatic Stress Disorder) was thought to be the reason.

It is unlikely that this man had a juweller make a special Flugzeugf?hrerabzeichen with elaborate engraving on the back.

It would be interesting to know if the engraved name on the back reads von Roth or Ritter von Roth

The Knight's Cross of the Max-Joseph Order was awarded posthumously to Roth in 1919 which gave him the title Ritter von Roth.

During his life he was only known as Friedrich (Fritz) Roth.

Regards, Hardy

Edited November 1, 2008 by Naxos

[Guest Rick Research]

With the proper accent mark in his name I share with him, of course.

He may also have been in unbearable pain and facing amputation from his foot wound.

But these are merely inconvenient facts, Hardy.

I have observed a Bragging Trophy pattern here, rather than any effort at serious STUDY let alone understanding. Throwing money at Super Special items without ever knowing what the Merely Usual NORM was and then expecting Bigger ??$? Has To Be Better is a classic scenario for bankrupting self-deception which we mere plodding mortals have seen over and over and over again.

Money spent never = experience earned/learned.

[medalnet]

Let me add to this thread, that I was consulted on this particular item many times before and after the action. After being a scary thought considering the price this piece was sold for.

I can only say - as usual - think first, buy afterwards.

[Naxos]

VINLAND30,

with a little research (approx. 1 hour) one can find enough evidence to show that the inscription on the back of your cut-out pilot badge is fiction.

Even with the name of the individual covered I can see the von before the name.

As Rick and I pointed out, Roth's name had never a "von" before it during his life - his correct name wasn't even Roth but R?th.

Friedrich Eduard Oskar R?th born on September 29th, 1893 known as Fritz R?th during his lifetime.

http://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_11_2008/post-1062-1225570214.jpghttp://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_11_2008/post-1062-1225576952.jpg

According to the police report of the city of Nuremberg's Polizeihauptwache, the body of Lt.d..Res. Fritz, Eduard, Oskar R?th of Jagdstaffel 16 was

found on Wednesday January first 1919, 10.30 am. at the rail tracks Eger-N?rnberg in the near Ostend street.

R?ht in civilian life a businessman, was not married a Lutheran and lived at Sulzbachstrasse 25 Apartment 1 in Nuremberg.

Beside the body a 6,5 mm Browning pistol, with five rounds in the clip and one round spent, was recovered. The body showed a gunshot wound at

the right temple two centimeters above the ear.

In a letter to his sister he wrote. He was deeply depressed about what he did in the war and what was done to others

Suffering from depressions seems to be not uncommon in his family his sister was 'over-religious'. His family did not bury him under his name because

he committed suicide.

R?th is buried at the St. Johannis Friedhof at N?rnberg. His grave still exists, but it does not bear his name. His family refused to put

his name on the grave because it was a sin to them to commit suicide.

But in the cemetery's records it is still noted where Friedrich lays.

Since Fritz while he was alive could not have known that he would be awarded the knight's cross allowing him to change his

name from Fritz R?th to Fritz Ritter von R?th the engraving could only have been added after his death.

Reading the above pretty much rules out his immediate family as having added the inscription on the back.

Hardy

Edited November 1, 2008 by Naxos

[Guest Rick Research]

:rolleyes:

You are GOOD!!!! :cheers:

[Naxos]

BTW

Ferg1 and Stogieman's expertise and evaluation is good enough for me - just wanted to show that there is more then one way of coming to a conclusion.

Hardy

[Stogieman]

I'm surprised there were only 46 bidders on this item, my experience thus far in this field is that there are several hundred people who routinely purchase absolute crap and then get angry when someone tells them it's a fake.

Your uneducated opinion of basing authenticity on the number of bidders/price of the item absolutely astounds me. I wish you the very best of luck in collecting now and in the future.

[Guest Rick Research]

Most were no doubt bitterly disappointed because they missed out on the posthumously signed Sanke Red Baron death card:

http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=2950...p;hl=Richthofen

[VINLAND30]

I'm surprised there were only 46 bidders on this item, my experience thus far in this field is that there are several hundred people who routinely purchase absolute crap and then get angry when someone tells them it's a fake.

Your uneducated opinion of basing authenticity on the number of bidders/price of the item absolutely astounds me. I wish you the very best of luck in collecting now and in the future.

Like I said earlier if you sell it it's authentic when some one else has it , it is bad .

[saschaw]

Like I said earlier if you sell it it's authentic when some one else has it , it is bad .

That's a chutzpah, isn't it?

[Naxos]

Like I said earlier if you sell it it's authentic when some one else has it , it is bad .

I give up - I spent an hour this morning doing your homework (researching and translating).

At least take the time and read it!

Instead of continuing to defend the impossible invest your energy in trying to get your money back.

Regards, Hardy

Edited November 2, 2008 by Naxos

[VINLAND30]

VINLAND30,

with a little research (approx. 1 hour) one can find enough evidence to show that the inscription on the back of your cut-out pilot badge is fiction.

Even with the name of the individual covered I can see the von before the name.

As Rick and I pointed out, Roth's name had never a "von" before it during his life - his correct name wasn't even Roth but R?th.

Friedrich Eduard Oskar R?th born on September 29th, 1893 known as Fritz R?th during his lifetime.

http://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_11_2008/post-1062-1225570214.jpghttp://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_11_2008/post-1062-1225576952.jpg

According to the police report of the city of Nuremberg's Polizeihauptwache, the body of Lt.d..Res. Fritz, Eduard, Oskar R?th of Jagdstaffel 16 was

found on Wednesday January first 1919, 10.30 am. at the rail tracks Eger-N?rnberg in the near Ostend street.

R?ht in civilian life a businessman, was not married a Lutheran and lived at Sulzbachstrasse 25 Apartment 1 in Nuremberg.

Beside the body a 6,5 mm Browning pistol, with five rounds in the clip and one round spent, was recovered. The body showed a gunshot wound at

the right temple two centimeters above the ear.

In a letter to his sister he wrote. He was deeply depressed about what he did in the war and what was done to others

Suffering from depressions seems to be not uncommon in his family his sister was 'over-religious'. His family did not bury him under his name because

he committed suicide.

R?th is buried at the St. Johannis Friedhof at N?rnberg. His grave still exists, but it does not bear his name. His family refused to put

his name on the grave because it was a sin to them to commit suicide.

But in the cemetery's records it is still noted where Friedrich lays.

Since Fritz while he was alive could not have known that he would be awarded the knight's cross allowing him to change his

name from Fritz R?th to Fritz Ritter von R?th the engraving could only have been added after his death.

Reading the above pretty much rules out his immediate family as having added the inscription on the back.

Hardy

I guess it is not a posthumous presentation either then? I have researched this piece for over 3 weeks and never considered that at all until you pointed out this fact.That observation is genius.Thank you very much for taking the time to write.

[Naxos]

Thank you very much for taking the time to write.

You are welcome!

I guess it is not a posthumous presentation either then?

Not likely posthumous either -

After the war Germany was devastated - Revolution, Occupation and Hunger - not the time to celebrate the heroes of a lost war, besides the

family distanced themselves from their tragic brother and son.

Sad story

VINLAND30 - we are just trying to help and educate ourselves here

Hardy

Edited November 2, 2008 by Naxos

[David S]

It comes with a C.O.A. from a reputable auction house

What auction house ?

Just curious

[Kev in Deva]

What auction house ?

Just curious

I believe the poster of this item mentions in another thread it was Manions Auction House

which I believe has gone down the tubes in the recent past.

Kevin in Deva. :beer:

[Ed Maroli]

The airplane is a casting. Look at all the flash and uneven edges.

~Ed.