WW1 Bavarian Named Cut out Bavarian Pilots Badge with PLM engraved

[Brian Wolfe]

I hope this is not too far off topic.

Regarding all of you so-call "experts" here at GMIC let me say this.

Several months ago I was making some trades with a dealer in antiquities whose shop held everything from ancient Roman artifacts to military medals. I was trading fossils for medals. His prices were somewhere on the other side of the moon, but I had purchased or self-collected my specimens 30 years ago so all in all is was getting my money's worth. With a number of single medals I took a first class TR War Merit badge in one of the trades. Not being schooled in TR material I posted it here.

There was a deathly silence throughout the forum as Rick and others drew a breath of disbelief before giving me the bad news that my trade had netted me a fake. They followed this up with advice that I should not be collecting in areas that I was not familiar with. Ouch! This was a case where what was said hurt because it was true not because it was vindictive. I took the badge back and the dealer was very upset claiming this was the real deal. I suggested that he should join this forum and read what was said about the badge. Now, get this. He produced a book which he said supported his claim and was much more reliable than the so-called "experts" at GMIC. I looked that the badge in the book... and... ready for this? What you fellows had said was verified by the dealer's very own reference book. He then claimed this was a variation of the badge and that variation had been missed when the book had been written! This guy should have been working the comedy club circuit! Since then I have found several other references that prove what the members had stated.

Since I don't really collect TR items I have also taken the members' advice and stayed away from WW II German. I don't have time or money to collect everything so I am playing in my own sand box as there are too many bullies in the school yard. I'm interested in any and all military related items and information but I only spend my money where I am comfortable that what I am buying is 100%. There was another badge in this "deal" which I kept, first because I liked it and secondly because everytime I start to doubt my fellow members I look at the badge and then decide to save my money. I've attached a photo of this "reminder" badge either for the members enjoyment or irritation.

Regards

Brian

[Guest Rick Research]

:Cat-Scratch: MANION'S "reputable?" Not only not now-- not EVER! They are "the Sergeant Schultz of collecting" to paraphrase their old silly "Wall Street" slogan.

Brian!

We have ALL-- yes ALL-- made huge, horrifying, painful mistakes:

but we LEARN from the financial loss--or only gamble what we can afford to throw away.

The point is to NOT CONTINUE MAKING THE SAME MISTAKE OVER AND OVER.

Nobody likes getting slapped in the head and feeling like a fool. It's not about THAT.

Nowadays, the most important thing is to get your money back ASAP--if that is even possible given the prevalence of low-life dealers out there.

I've just had to tell one of our regular members that a VERY expensive Third Reich document is a grotesque fake: and every hammer blow reason WHY.

He will be getting HIS money back-- though I'm willing to guarantee you that the clearly demonstrated fraudulent item goes right back up for sale to the next buyer who does not have informed and caring friends available to HIM.

THAT is what all this is about.

In other areas, it's called Tough Love.

We don't want ANY collector getting burned if we can help prevent it.

If that means a damn good clout and a severe shaking... that is the final resort in an attempt to interject reality. If that doesn't work...

evolution always does. Live together, die alone. :beer:

[Kev in Deva]

I believe the poster of this item mentions in another thread it was Manions Auction House

which I believe has gone down the tubes in the recent past.

Kevin in Deva.

The item was originally purchased in 2004 according to this:-

http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?s=&showtop...st&p=299999

I would be very doubtful if any money could be clawed back at so late a stage,

as I believe Manion's are out of business, the poster of this item seems to be clutching at any

straws and excuses to justify this item as the real deal, when all indications show the opposite.

Even if laser cut, a few file marks can be added for "authenticity",

the addition of a P.L.M. engraving proves nothing either.

As Rick said best to bite the bullet and accept the facts.

Kevin in Deva.

[scottplen]

I Have no Idea about badge !!! I only know members of this forum Have help me and others in this field to weed out the fake and fantasty items ! As for stogie and rick i would trust there input on this!!!!

as i have been told by them in the past about some of my bars ! Just take a deep breath and relax people are only trying to help you !! Like others have said if you are happy with it than cherish it !

[paddywhack]

does stogie sell alot of impy aviation badges????dont think he does!! but i have to say vinderland 30 your comments are very very unjustified and very very VERY ill-educated in in them self! stogie has done nothing but EVER help people for years as has many many many other people on this very fine forum! i think YOU spent the money on this badge wanted to show it off and now are miffed that its a fake! this happened to my self! my first 2 ww2 iron crosses turned out to be fakes but i toke the hit and learned from my mistakes! if you bothered to research yourself youd have found its not real! you've even got the postmortem report on the guy whos it engraved to!! what more proof do you want? shall was go to his grave and just check to see if hes still there??

[VtwinVince]

People have tried to be "diplomatic" regarding this evident forgery, and I think it best if the buyer defers to Stogieman, Rick etc., who, however much Vinland cares to dispute it, are a genuine wealth of information on Imperial aviation badges. I have personally only owned one engraved Bavarian pilot badge, which I found in a small town in Bavaria in 1979. It bore no resemblance to the cut-out item and was a standard, flat-back Poellath badge with spoked wheels and the hallmarks in the usual places.

[Daniel Cole]

It would seem to me a novice, that the chance of 2 cut out pilots badges (Roth and Keller), each engraved with a similar PLM is way too coincidental. Also the spelling error in Roth versus Ro"th, that would be as big a mistake in German as Smith or Smyth in English.

[Guest Rick Research]

That is the tactical symbol of an Army Corps, drawn on maps. Air units were originally assigned at that level.

The same emblem was used on the automobile pennants of German Corps commanders in both wars. His Eminence Cardinal Bettinger is seen here arriving to say Mass for Bavarian troops, delivered to the front in the Corps Commander's automobile. The pennant (blurry, but best I've got) just shows on the Cardinal's robe at his left forearm, beyond the headlight: