What is this neck order?

[HeikoGrusdat]

Nice photo of a officer - please can someone ID the order around his neck for me - I can see a crown and something like a dragon over the star....?!

any help is welcome

Heiko

[Josef Rietveld]

The neckcross ist the Dragon of Annam (Vietnam)

regards

josef

[saschaw]

It's a "FD2" - Dragon order 2nd class from Annam, former French colony in south east Asia. Hardly ever seen on a German officer, I guess...

Is that a DAK or a LD1 in front of his Russian order of Anne?

Edit:

argh, Josef was faster. ;)

Edited February 19, 2009 by saschaw

[HeikoGrusdat]

:speechless1: Vietnam......????

I have NEVER seen this before with a german officer........ Sascha, I would say it is a LD1 - but I am not 100% shure....

[Guest Rick Research]

He is a mere Leutnant or Oberleutnant-- must be of the Landwehr. UNFORTUNATELY whatever his cipher is is cropped off and too blurry for me to find him instantly. (? dR Gren Rgt 1 or Gren Rgt 3?....)

Year? Name?

[HeikoGrusdat]

sorry - no year and no name...........

[HeikoGrusdat]

I checked complete 1910 and found only one possibility with one of 4 ..... checked again 1914 and got the same possibility with 2 of 4...... but that`s it, no FD2 in complete Garde Reserve or Garde Landwehr....or Grenadiere or whatever

only semi match:

1914 Hauptmann Petersen of Garde Grenadier Regiment N?5 with LD1 and RA3 - he was from K?nigsberg as the photo is too - but can this be him????

Edited February 19, 2009 by HeikoGrusdat

[Glenn J]

Heiko

he is not wearing the uniform of Garde Grenadier Regiment N? 5 (or Gren Rgt 1 or Gren Rgt 3 for that matter)

Regards

Glenn

[HeikoGrusdat]

Thanks Glen - what uniform is he wearing???? Can you tell it from the picture.....

[HeikoGrusdat]

.............just as little input: I went through the ranklists for 3 hours now and I found exactly...............................

NO

and really not even one dragon of Annam to any german officer........ is there any possibility to get a list of awards to foreign military personell by any french friends?

[Guest Rick Research]

There are multiple classes for it listed in every Rank List abbreviation page, but I can't say that "FD" ever registered on me as an award code flipping endlessly through these for decades.

He is no more than an Oberleutnant-- if his single pip is Off Camera and may well be a mere Leutnant-- if he was a Hauptmann his pips would show side by side on his boards. I cannot tell what the partial blurry regimental cypher is. The more I think about that he must be a dR rather than dL officer.

Obviously he was a resident of K?nigsberg with an affiliation to some other unit-- not helpful to us at all.

This is where the little world of imperieal era German officer research DESPERATELY needs somebody to work on PEACETIME awards the way that all Living Research Gnomes are working on WARTIME ones. It is simply too gigantic a task to do BOTH.

[Daniel Cole]

Is the person on this listing?

http://www.dragonofannam.com/members.html

[Ed_Haynes]

Is the person on this listing?

http://www.dragonofannam.com/members.html

I doubt it, as this seems to be the fantasy/fiction "survival" of the order.

[HeikoGrusdat]

right..... found it some hours ago too

Ok, this man seems to be my personal Waterloo - a very interesting photo with a very interesting award that seems to be a bit ivisible....

What I learned this evening is that the first rank list that lists french colonial orders is the one from 1906 - but only the black star of Benin

The first rank list that lists the "Drachen-Orden von Annam" is the one from 1909 - is this the first year they need to list it or what? No german officer got this order earlier? The cypher is "FD" and 1 2 3 4 5 for Gro?kreuz , Gro?offizier , Kommandeur , Offizier and Ritter

I am looking through the complete lists since hours but I can`t find any man with that award............. I will not go to bed untill I have one!!!! :wacky:

[Glenn J]

Heiko,

difficult to say. As there appears to be a cypher/number on the epaulette he is probably not a Foot Guards reserve officer. This pattern of litzen was worn on the Waffenrock amongst others by the following "Prussian" units:

Grenadier-Regiment Nr. 6

Grenadier-Regiment Nr. 11

Grenadier-Regiment Nr. 89

Grenadier-Regiment Nr. 109

Grenadier-Regiment Nr. 115

1. Garde-Dragoner-Regiment

2. Garde-Dragoner-Regiment

Garde-Feldartillerie

All Pionier Officers

Shame there is no date on the photograph!

Regards

Glenn

[HeikoGrusdat]

Thank you very much Glenn.... I will concentrate my search on these units for all years now :speechless:

[Guest Rick Research]

I think we can sefely "deduct" 89 (Mecklenburg), 109 (Baden) and 115 (Hesse) to concentrate on the Prussiaans.

Hopefully, when he is hunted down and found, he'l show up in one of the Court and State lists which will explain his peculiar "day job."

This is maddeningly frustrating, since a freakish combination like this SHOULD leap off the pages of any Rank List. Thanks to the photographer's chopping off clear identification of the unit, I'm stymied--

to my understanding, wearing the cipher of a pre-war regiment would only have been done by a dR officer. (?) If said reservist went into the LANDWEHR, he'd have dropped that cypher? Am I barking up the wrong tree here?

It now seems to me, having checked the dR officers in the regiments Glenn has identified for us, that the Leutnant/Oberleutnant must be HIDDEN in some Landwehrbezirk NOT K?nigsberg. Hundreds and hundreds of paes of dL officers to check-- every single year before the war.

[Glenn J]

Rick,

correct....a Landwehr officer would have dropped the cypher and in fact the litzen (although not Garde-Landwehr, but these guys would have dropped the cypher)

I am ruing the day I gave away my book of all holders of the ?EK!!

Regards

Glenn

[Guest Rick Research]

So MUST be among the "dR" officers.

Another niggling thought-- given the bizarre things we keep finding out about Rank Lists---

I'm wondering whether IF he had a "pre-listing" Dragon... it just NEVER got added in. I'm looking for Lieutenants with the Red Eagle 4, LD1, and the Austrian and Russian awards ONLY.

This is an unexpectedly tough challenge... but since it is howling Manitoba wind outside again, gives me something "constructive" to do listening to the forest snapping and cracking out there!

PS-- There were no Pioneer units with cyphers (?) so can we scratch them entirely also?

[Naxos]

Edward J. Emering wrote: "The Imperial Order of the Dragon of Annam" perhaps contacting him might help.

http://www.emering.com/orderOfDragon/index.html

Edited February 20, 2009 by Naxos

[Guest Rick Research]

BUWAHAHAHAH!!! I HAVE FOUND HIM!!!!

I am never sure at times like this whether I feel more like Lon Chaney's Phantom of the Opera or Renfield in Bela Lugosi's Dracula.

ANYWAY-- he was NOT IN THE ARMY.

1908/09 Orders Almanac:

1918 Reichs Hof- u- Staats Handbuch:

This latter obviously meant the equally bizarre Oldenburg and Brunswick WW1 crosses on noncombatant ribbons.

Brusts were an arts and letters (of the writing not delivering ) sort.

NO explanation for the Vietnamese dingus.

Full kudos to Glenn, however. Apparently our Post Director Brust HAD served in Hessian IR 115 and is decked out there in his uniform dR aD. :rolleyes:

[Naxos]

HOW did you do this?

[Guest Rick Research]

Actually thought (Homer Simpson noises) to look in Willi Geile's Weird Awards In The Orders Almanac index volume of my own Autengruber series.

I may be old, but I am slow. :rolleyes:

[Ed_Haynes]

Interesting, and well done. (To the extent that mere mortals can read this chicken-scratching.)

[Glenn J]

Well done Rick!

Of course it did not help that Herr Postdirektor Brust is only shown with an RAO4 and a LD1 in the 1907 Rangliste!!!!! However he is shown on his transfer to Landwehr status in 1907/08 in Landwehrbezirk Gumbinenn with the FD3, ?EK3 and RA3.

Sekonde-Lieutenant d.R.: 16.2.92

Oberleutnant d.R.: 15.12.00 V4v

He retired from Landwehr service in 1908/09. More to follow..............

Regards

Glenn