Belgium Question on Order of Leopolds

[speedytop]

Hi,

Hendrik:

"Unlike the Leopold Order, the Leopold II Order has no divisions and thus no crossed swords below the crown suspension."

Than I must have fakes

Two different makers.

Tim,

gold or silver palms with A (Albert) or L (Leopold III) are for military persons with citation in orders of the day in WW I or WW II.

Uwe

[Hendrik]

... should the Leopold II have crossed swords under the crown? I thought as there were not military divisions assigned to this award, the swords only applied to the Leopold I orders?? (see post # 18 reply)

Second, and to my more recent question; on your example without the swords, what would the palm signify? A heroic or meritorious act by a civilian in war or hostile environment?

Hello Tim and Uwe,

The Order of Leopold II should never have swords between the cross and the crown suspension. Examples obviously exist but they are quite unofficial. Manufacturers will of course produce anything a customer wants if he's prepared to pay for it. I think it's sad that these are around as they have no reason for being and, to make matters worse, I've also encountered ones with crossed anchors imitating the Maritime Division of the Leopold Order !

These horrors can't even be called fakes : they simply don't exist as original awards and are fantasies.

A palm on the ribbon of a Belgian order signifies the award was made in wartime. It can thus be an award to a civilian but also (and I think even more frequently) to a military person.

To sum it up, an award of say the Leopold II Order can

- have no ribbon devices (= normal peacetime award)

- have a palm device (= wartime award)

- crossed swords device (= award to a war veteran)

- both palm and swords device (= wartime award + recognition as veteran from 1939 onwards)

The small palm on one of Uwe's knight classes is, of course, destined for a miniature version of the award. Note it shows the letter "A", cypher of Albert I, the Belgian King during WWI. The other, full size palm, shows the "L" of Leopold III who reigned during WWII. The latter palm was also used during the Korean War although Leopold III had been replaced by his son, Baudouin I, by then.

Cheers,

Hendrik

[Tim B]

Okay, many thanks you two! I am really trying to get this one down before spending money on awards that I later don't really want to collect, so my sincere gratitude in any assistance. Appears this is a bigger minefield than I first realized.

So, I am looking at an officer grade Leopold II with palm, and I take it as an award issued to a civilian during a wartime period, but not necessarily directly related to combat?

Tim

[Hendrik]

So, I am looking at an officer grade Leopold II with palm, and I take it as an award issued to a civilian during a wartime period, but not necessarily directly related to combat?

... it may just as well be one awarded to a military man for a combat action. The palm merely signifies a wartime award, nothing more. Provenance, documents, other medals in the group, would be needed to determine the circumstances relating to the decoration.

Cheers,

Hendrik

[Roeland]

Hendrik: The Order of Leopold II should never have swords between the cross and the crown suspension. Examples obviously exist but they are quite unofficial. Manufacturers will of course produce anything a customer wants if he's prepared to pay for it. I think it's sad that these are around as they have no reason for being and, to make matters worse, I've also encountered ones with crossed anchors imitating the Maritime Division of the Leopold Order !

These horrors can't even be called fakes : they simply don't exist as original awards and are fantasies.

Indeed, if the customer wanted it with swords or ankers, they could have it made. They weren't official, but I believe if one was allowed to wear the order and had one made with swords or ankers, nobody would really make a problem of it. I believe even the army museum in Brussels has some of those in the collection.

I have also seen orders with 1-language core in Dutch (normally 1-language core is in French only), or the ''Ijzerkruis'' with flemish collors (I believe Hendrik has one on his site as well).

Although they are not official, I do like the looks of them sometimes (if they look old, not the newer versions). Perhaps I like them because they are not as common as the normal ones. Furthermore, if you collect these orders you could have these unofficial types as well in your collection, you can't deny them as they excist and are/have been worn.

kind regards,

Roeland

Edited June 7, 2009 by Roeland

[Gunner 1]

For those of you interested in the Order of Leopold the upcoming July-August issue of JOMSA: The Journal of the Orders and Medals Society of America will have as its feature article "About the Origins of the Belgian Order of Leopold" by Lieutenant Colonel Eric Tripnaux. The article discusses the origins of the Order and illustrates the four types of the Order in the 1800s based on the form of the crown. The issue goes to the printer on 30 June and should be out to the membership by the third week in July. Regards, Gunner 1

[Hendrik]

Hello Gunner1,

That would be a summary of Eric Tripnaux's book "L'Origine de l'ordre de L?opold", ISBN 978-9-0812772-1-1, but please note it deals with the Leopold Order, not the Leopold II Order. The book is written in French and Dutch (Flemish) language but contains resumes in German and English - 250+ pages and many fine colour pictures. Forgot its price but it wasn't expensive at all in view of the quality !

Cheers,

Hendrik

[Gunner 1]

Hendrik: You are correct that the article (and his book) is about the Order of Leopold, not the Order of Leopold II, but I think both were being discussed on this thread. Gunner I

[PKeating]

A palm on the ribbon of a Belgian order signifies the award was made in wartime. It can thus be an award to a civilian but also (and I think even more frequently) to a military person.

To sum it up, an award of say the Leopold II Order can

- have no ribbon devices (= normal peacetime award)

- have a palm device (= wartime award)

- crossed swords device (= award to a war veteran)

- both palm and swords device (= wartime award + recognition as veteran from 1939 onwards)

The small palm on one of Uwe's knight classes is, of course, destined for a miniature version of the award. Note it shows the letter "A", cypher of Albert I, the Belgian King during WWI. The other, full size palm, shows the "L" of Leopold III who reigned during WWII. The latter palm was also used during the Korean War although Leopold III had been replaced by his son, Baudouin I, by then.

Cheers,

Hendrik

Here is an example of an award to a 'civilian', who spent three and a half years in German custody for Resistance activities. These medals were in a frame, which was beyond repair, but the recipient's name is lost in the mists of time and history, sadly. Interesting that he also received the French Resistance Medal.

PK

Edited June 11, 2009 by PKeating

[speedytop]

These could be friends, in minature

Uwe

Edited June 11, 2009 by speedytop

[PKeating]

I'd never seen Belgian miniatures before. They are quite as finely detailed and beautiful as their French counterparts. Thank you for showing these! Your grouping has the civilian version of the Resistance Medal. The original owner spent the same amount of time as a political internee. They seem to be mounted back-to-front, with the Order of Leopold and the Croix de Guerre at the wrong end.

P

[Tim B]

Well, I finally picked up a nice Leopold I (Officer grade) and wanted to share it here. Doesn't have a ribbon yet, but I'm going to work on it. Many thanks to all that helped answer questions for a beginning Belgian collector.

Enjoy!

Tim

[Tim B]

Here's another recent pick up. I think I did good with this one.

Tim

Order of Leopold II Officer w/swords; I believe a WW1 veteran based on the swords, French only script, and type of crown?

[Tim B]

Crown has the holes in the base.

Correct me if wrong, but the WWII pieces didn't have the open holes (filled in or solid instead)?

Tim

[Hendrik]

Hello Tim,

I believe this type of crown was used between 1918 and 1950. Very nice officer class !!!

Cheers,

Hendrik

[Tim B]

Hi Hendrik!

Thanks, I really like this one as well. Okay, then what is the difference here between the crown styles, just manufacturers?

Tim

Crown on the left has the holes open; the one on the right, the holes are completely filled in :

Edited July 3, 2009 by Tim B

[Hendrik]

Tim,

Quite likely manufacturers' variations as you already suspected.

Cheers,

Hendrik

[Tim B]

Okay, can we revisit the swords issue?

If the swords denoted a "war" veteran and not just someone in the military that was awarded one of these, and if the PIC below shows the difference in sword styles for WWII and Korea, then is the plain crossed swords only for WWI? IF not, ???

Tim

[Hendrik]

Correct, Tim, plain ones indicate a WWI veteran.

Cheers,

Hendrik

[Tim B]

Thank you my friend! You have been more than just help here, really appreciate the time and answers.

So...if the medal I have is all original period and not put together, I have a rather nice looking WWI order.

I'll put up a cased Crown Order next...more fun!

Cheers,

Tim

[Tim B]

Well, no sense in starting a new thread, so...

Here's a cased Order of the Crown with swords, again, assuming it's WW1 because of the sword style.

Tim

[Tim B]

Not sure if that jeweler is still in business, but it might more accurately date the piece. I was never really keen on this medal when comparing the Leopold I/II for design looks, but in hand, its really quite nice and..heavy!

Tim

[Tim B]

Swords are silver, just aged toned with a slight gold tint. Enjoy

Tim

[Tim B]

Here's a question for those that have this medal in their collections. Looking at the crimp where the star attaches to the wreath, is it normal for the crimp to show from the front? I have seen examples with this seam on the front and back. Just seems like it would have been on the reverse side out of site.

Tim

[Tim B]

Let's regress for a minute and I knew I should have asked this question before moving on to the Crown Order.

On the plain crossed swords attachment; I'll use the Leopold Orders for example here. If the plain crossed swords were representative of WW1 only and the bilingual versions of the medals occured after 1951, why are there so many versions available that have these style swords on the bilingual versions?

- Are they replacement medals for recipients that needed a replacement and the design available had changed to the modern version? In other words, the old style medals were no longer available for purchase.

- Made up pieces to order, similar to the Leopold II's with the swords incorporated into the medal design, or just made up to embellish an item for sale?

Same questions could apply to the WWII orders; On those awards with the 40-45 version of the swords, then the medal should only be a unilingual version. I supposed the Korea ones might be both, but the bilingual ones would seem to be more prevalent.

Questions, questions, questions...

Tim

Edited July 6, 2009 by Tim B