Heer Army Sonderf?hrer

[Mike]

This is a rare Tunic and since most of us already know the SF story , I won't recap it?But I'm listing this Link to a site but , you might have to click the ?Translate? tab to get an interesting version.

http://www.google.com/search?q=sonderfuhre...art=10&sa=N

...this is a 2nd Lt rank

Besides the distinctive insignia , notice how they use a Grey Background on the Collar/Visor band and even the Breast Eagle. The Gray backed Eagle is harder to find and I?ve seen several SF Tunics using the standard Heer Eagle.

The Green Piping on the Visor was for his ?Specialty? while the Shoulder Boards are standard SF.

Now this particular Tunic also came with a sad story . I also bought this in the early 70?s ?the Veteran who originally took it was gathering War Souvenirs and labeling them and shipping them home. His name was Cpl Medas and he labeled it on 3/19/45 ?on the flip side of his tag he wrote that it was a German Naval Field Jacket (he didn?t know)

Then I found a second Tag ?it was labeled by another Soldier and said that Staff Sgt Medas (he was promoted) was killed in action on April 9th 1945 .

So the Tunic did end up as a War Souvenir ...but not with the Soldier who took it first.

[Mike]

---

[Mike]

Tags

[Mike]

----

[Mike]

last

[Mike]

I left the tags attached ..right where they put them

[Paul R]

Thank you for sharing this set with us! The tags do add an errie twist! Is the tunic or cap named? Any awards loops? Is the cap original to the tunic?

This is much rarer than an SS tunic!!

[Mike]

Thanks Paul ,and I agree , these are a lot harder to find than an SS Tunic . There's no sign of it ever having any Award Loops . And the Visor is named but didn't come with it ..it was a Christmas Gift from a fellow Collector (and great friend) who knew I had the Tunic and just wanted to help me complete the set ..I tried buying it from him but , he wouldn't hear of it.

It was not out of the ordinary to see a SF wearing the Grey Piped Shoulder boards and a different color on his Visor. Apparently they did not mass produce the Sf Boards with piping for every branch color and it was a lot easier to just add the grey fabric around the Visor than try producing one of each style for a limited market.

Also ..I bet there are custom Tailored Sf Tunics out there but , there was no such thing as a mass produced (or RB #'d), Army issued Sonderf?hrer Uniform ..I've only seen M36's etc that were modified by adding the grey Fabric around the Collar . It wasn't worth their time to do it since ...there was not enough demand.

For the same reason , even the Grey backed breast eagles are very rare and they would have been used by all Army Sf's if the grey couldn't be ordered.

"You just keep working on Translating that paper or building that Bridge and we'll work on getting you the right Color Insignia ..trust us"

Bill has an example for sale with a green backed Eagle --

http://www.therupturedduck.com/WebPages/Uniforms/u125.htm

Here are a few shots inside of Visor --

Edited April 3, 2009 by Mike

[Mike]

Nice worn Erel

[Laurence Strong]

Hi Mike

Very nice tunic. Thanks for showing

Sonderfuhrer nebenfarbe was Blue Grey and was the only nebenfarbe issued to the Sonderfuhrer. Trades were determined by metal devices or nothing at all. Now thats not to say that there might not have been variations in what was worn. However I have not seen anything to this point.

Here is a n incomplete list from TM-E 30-451: Handbook on German Military Forces

[Laurence Strong]

Here is a rare pair of Sonderfuehrer 1940 regulation boards used by a Eisenbahn Sonderfuhrer Post group Z. As you can see the list of devices is incomplete.

[Mike]

Hi , Agreed and I should have phrased that differently ?The Sf ranks only used the grey piping on Shoulder Boards and did not use the color denoting their assigned branch on them. However ?the Visor seems to have been used by them to show who they were assigned to as over the years I?ve seen Sf Grey Band Visors with a various colored piping. Maybe not regulation but , neither was the green backed Eagle. Now the Eisenbahn boards you just posted are interesting because the piping they used is a darker Blue than the reg Army Grey ..maybe it?s the shot ?

I noticed Paul started a Thread on Luft Sf ?I?ll have to go back to see how they handled piping for their ranks.

[Laurence Strong]

Hi Mike

I should rephrase my first post to read. They had a Blue Grey Waffenfarbe and no Nebenfarbes were issued. Luft Sonderfuhrer had a different way of doing things. Their Sonderfuhrer had different career levels were as the Heer did not.

[Mike]

Hi Mike

I should rephrase my first post to read. They had a Blue Grey Waffenfarbe and no Nebenfarbes were issued. Luft Sonderfuhrer had a different way of doing things. Their Sonderfuhrer had different career levels were as the Heer did not.

Well ..."we" might have to re-think that because Piped Sf Visors were used and can be found. However , I'll add that I have only seen Piping for Medical/Propaganda and other specialized branches ..never armed branches like Infantry or Pz. They were around back in the late 60's when no one in our Hobby even had a clue as to what a Sonderfuhrer was ..so there'd be no reason what-so-ever for anyone to "create" a fake Sf Visor by carefully adding a Grey Band back then.

As we all know ..Not everything pre 45 was regulation or text Book.

How do you feel about the Green backed Eagles being used on Sf Tunics ?

Edited April 3, 2009 by Mike

[Wessel]

Mike, Lovely tunic and visor!

[Mike]

Mike, Lovely tunic and visor!

Thanks Wessel !

Here are a few more close ups of the Visor ..the band wasn't added yesterday

[Mike]

Very well done ..clean and tight

[Wessel]

My SF visor has a grey ribbed fabric on both the band and the piping.

[Wessel]

..

[Wessel]

...and the tunic, with what seems to be RAD tabs (as discussed with Laurence on another thread), but I have tracked down a pair of collar tabs and await their coming to see if they will be suitable for changing.

Having said that the RAD tabs look as though they have been on for years...is it possible they are original to the tunic???

[Mike]

Thanks Wessel !

Here are a few more close ups of the Visor ..

I just went through this Thread -- http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=29537&st=0 and it?s full of non regulation examples of insignia in use by Sonderfuhrer?s . I think it?s a field that?s been overlooked for years ..and there were allowances made and definitely exceptions to the rules.

However ...I'd say the RAD Tabs were added post war since that combo just doesn't make sense to me. How are the stitched on ? any sign of another pair of Tabs being in place ? Put your finger under the Boards (where they are sewn into the shoulder) and see if there's a gap so you can stick your finger into the shoulder ...that's a quick sign that someone added the Boards to the Tunic. When most Collectors changed insignia years ago ..they never seemed to care about stitching the boards on correctly (sewn all around the base of the board)

And your Visor is a nice example ! ...that was a lucky score. Did that come with a Tunic ?

Edited April 3, 2009 by Mike

[Laurence Strong]

Well ..."we" might have to re-think that because Piped Sf Visors were used and can be found. However , I'll add that I have only seen Piping for Medical/Propaganda and other specialized branches ..never armed branches like Infantry or Pz.

Hi Mike

Having spent quite a few years in the military, I can attest that if the rules can be flaunted?.they will be. Having said that Propaganda was a branch of its own and wore regular Heer boards with their own Waffenfarbe IIRC as it?s not a branch I have researched. A Sonderfuhrer visor with Beamte green piping would make sense. From what I understand most Sonderfuhrer units were small and ?stand alone units? so if you lost a piece of kit and the closest match was?would you say ?no?, when the next closest supply unit was??where!

They were around back in the late 60's when no one in our Hobby even had a clue as to what a Sonderfuhrer was ..so there'd be no reason what-so-ever for anyone to "create" a fake Sf Visor by carefully adding a Grey Band back then.

As we all know ..Not everything pre 45 was regulation or text Book.

How do you feel about the Green backed Eagles being used on Sf Tunics ?

I have only researched rank insignia to this point, however again we go back to ?what?s available. As you say ?..Not everything pre 45 was regulation or text Book? I am hoping to post this weekend evidence of a missing High career trade in the HV that has not been acknowledged to date.

Here are my 4 Sonderf?hrer boards showing the difference in the ?Blur Grey?

[Mike]

Thanks Laurence ?The variations in Blue are very interesting and I can see where it could confuse things.One looks more Blue , one Charcoal another more black ... Each manufacturer seemed to produced their own shade ..or dies used varied ? I guess ?close enough? applied .

I run a Mess Hall and have fed everything from Reserves to Active Units. I?ve noticed a little more than a rivalry between them since many of the active Army look at the Reservists as part timers or ?Weekend Warriors?. Many in the Reserves are older and prior service so some of them look at the active Army Soldiers as ?Kids? that still have a lot to learn.

It makes me wonder how the average Soldier back then felt about the Sonderfuhrers ..In many cases I bet the Common Soldier might have seen them as make believe or temporary Officers and even regarded them with a little contempt.

? He?s not really an Officer but I have to salute him ??

And you know how the Military is ?they?d never REALLY be considered ?part of the family? so many of their regulations were probably looked at as loose guidelines.

They had a specific Job and they were specialists ?but were they given the credit they deserved ?

Just a thought

[Wessel]

Mike...The RAD - or actually I think they are FAD, as they are good quality bullion and have a RED stripe down the centre - are well sewn to the tunic, nicely padded and there ae no signs of any previous tabs being there. The shoulder boards are the correct ones and again well attached. The maker of the tunic is Louis Weber of Hannover who I have seen before as being very high quality tailors.

The pair of Sonderfuhrer tabs I spoke of have arrived, but are not up to the standard of the tunic so I will pass on them and wait for a better pair to show up...hopefully!

The tunic and the visor were separate purchases.

[DonC]

Mike, great set with some priceless history. I suspect that Sgt. Medas' records could be found wihtout too much trouble. Sonderf?hrer items are quite rare - thanks for posting!

Don