Flammenwerfer! Flames, skulls and stuff

[Naxos]

Bottom left!

Is the skull, next to the Freiwilligen-Regiment Reinhard shield badge, a skull armshield?

I'm not sure, what is the lettering under this skull?

Yes, it reads Aermelabzeichen (1.G.Rgt.z.F)

Edited October 17, 2009 by Naxos

[Sergeant 08]

Yes, it reads Aermelabzeichen (1.G.Rgt.z.F)

1.Garde Regiment zu Fuss?

[Naxos]

1.Garde Regiment zu Fuss?

Yes :cheers:

[Sergeant 08]

Really? I read members of 1.Garde Regiment zu Fuss fought in different Freikorps (Grenzschutz Ost etc.) after ww1.

But if they fought in other Freikorps, why they had an own skull badge?

Edited October 17, 2009 by Sergeant 08

[Naxos]

Really? I read members of 1.Garde Regiment zu Fuss fought in different Freikorps (Grenzschutz Ost etc.) after ww1.

But if they fought in other Freikorps, why they had an own skull badge?

There is a Rohr connection:

Walter Kaschner posted the following on 07 Sep 2005 at the Axis-History-Forum:

Ernst von Salomon's Das Buch vom Deutschen Freikorpskämpfer (originally published in 1938) contains an article by Major von Stephani himself, in which he describes the composition of the "Regiment Potsdam", as the Freikorps Potsdam was initially named, as follows:

"Es setzte sich zusammen aus drei Kompanien und einer Maschinengewehr-Kompanie des 1 Garde Regiment zu Fuss, drei Kompanien Gardejägern, drei Kompanien Unteroffizierschule, einem Zug Unteroffizieren des Regiments Gardedukorps, und einer Batterie, zuzammengestelt aus Angehöriger des 2 und 4 Gardefeldartillerie-Regiments, unter Führung des Hauptmans von Rohr*, zusammen rund 1200 Köpfe."

(*von Salomon wrongly adds a "von" in front of Rohr's last name.)

"It was composed of three [infantry] companies and a machine gun company from the 1st Guard Regiment on Foot, three companies of Rifle Guards, three companies from the Non-Commissioned Officers School, a platoon of non-commissioned officers from the Gardedukorps, and an artillery battery, made up from members of the 2nd and 4th Artillery Guard Regiments, under the command of Captain Rohr, altogether about 1,200 men."

read more here: http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=70595

Edited October 17, 2009 by Naxos

[Sergeant 08]

There is a Rohr connection:

Walter Kaschner posted the following on 07 Sep 2005 at the Axis-History-Forum:

Ernst von Salomon's Das Buch vom Deutschen Freikorpskämpfer (originally published in 1938) contains an article by Major von Stephani himself, in which he describes the composition of the "Regiment Potsdam", as the Freikorps Potsdam was initially named, as follows:

"Es setzte sich zusammen aus drei Kompanien und einer Maschinengewehr-Kompanie des 1 Garde Regiment zu Fuss, drei Kompanien Gardejägern, drei Kompanien Unteroffizierschule, einem Zug Unteroffizieren des Regiments Gardedukorps, und einer Batterie, zuzammengestelt aus Angehöriger des 2 und 4 Gardefeldartillerie-Regiments, unter Führung des Hauptmans von Rohr*, zusammen rund 1200 Köpfe."

(*von Salomon wrongly adds a "von" in front of Rohr's last name.)

"It was composed of three [infantry] companies and a machine gun company from the 1st Guard Regiment on Foot, three companies of Rifle Guards, three companies from the Non-Commissioned Officers School, a platoon of non-commissioned officers from the Gardedukorps, and an artillery battery, made up from members of the 2nd and 4th Artillery Guard Regiments, under the command of Captain Rohr, altogether about 1,200 men."

read more here: http://forum.axishis...pic.php?t=70595

Yes, soldiers of the 1.Garde Regiment zu Fuss fought in Berlin in the Freikorps Potsdam.

Edited October 17, 2009 by Sergeant 08

[Naxos]

Yes, soldiers of the 1.Garde Regiment zu Fuss fought in Berlin in the Freikorps Potsdam.

The entire I. Bataillon of „Freikorps Potsdam“ consisted of men from the first Garderegiment zu Fuß.

[Robin Lumsden]

This looks like the same skull.............it's facing in the same direction.

I wonder if this Reichswehr 35 Inf. Division was related to The Iron Division, after it was disbanded?

[Sergeant 08]

This looks like the same skull.............it's facing in the same direction.

I wonder if this Reichswehr 35 Inf. Division was related to The Iron Division, after it was disbanded?

Robin,

I know your skull. That is why I said, it could be interesting for some other collectors. My first thought was the same.

It looks similar, but I think the skull in the picture has a jaw. And your skull is a jawless skull. But who knows? Maybe only "künstlerische Freiheit"?

Look at the skull of the Brüssow Freikorps! Unusual picture, I think.

And I could say, my skull is comparable to the armshield next to the Reinhard badge! Not the same, but similar.

Looking for answers is a part of the hobby. It is a fascinating hobby, isn't it?

Edited October 17, 2009 by Sergeant 08

[Sergeant 08]

The entire I. Bataillon of „Freikorps Potsdam" consisted of men from the first Garderegiment zu Fuß.

Here are more informations! Enjoy the sound!

http://www.erstes-ga...Geschichte9.htm

Edited October 17, 2009 by Sergeant 08

[Naxos]

Here are more informations! Enjoy the sound!

http://www.erstes-ga...Geschichte9.htm

Danke!

[bob lembke]

The entire I. Bataillon of „Freikorps Potsdam“ consisted of men from the first Garderegiment zu Fuß.

Hardy;

Do you have the Solomon book? I think that I have a bit of it photo-copied, several years ago, but I don't recall that article. I will have to decend into the files to see what I have.

As I probably told you, my father fought in the Potsdam Regiment at the Vorwarts building in January 1919, and also in the activity later in that year, but then I am not sure if it was with the Potsdam Regiment, which was folded into another Freikorps unit. Von Stephani was quite a character. Anyone know of a source of information on him? He was a major far-right leader later in the 1920's. My father told me details about how many Spartakists that they actually shot when they took the building; right-leaning writers do not mention it, left-leaning writers indicate that all 300 prisoners were shot, which seems to be far off.

Bob

[bob lembke]

Just noticed the link to the info on von Stephani, Regiment Potsdam, usw. Thanks. Any more leads on von Stephani received with great thanks.

Bob

[Naxos]

Hardy;

Do you have the Solomon book? I think that I have a bit of it photo-copied, several years ago, but I don't recall that article. I will have to decend into the files to see what I have.

As I probably told you, my father fought in the Potsdam Regiment at the Vorwarts building in January 1919, and also in the activity later in that year, but then I am not sure if it was with the Potsdam Regiment, which was folded into another Freikorps unit. Von Stephani was quite a character. Anyone know of a source of information on him? He was a major far-right leader later in the 1920's. My father told me details about how many Spartakists that they actually shot when they took the building; right-leaning writers do not mention it, left-leaning writers indicate that all 300 prisoners were shot, which seems to be far off.

Bob

Bob, I have a digital copy of the book.

Good to hear from you,

Hardy :cheers:

Edited October 18, 2009 by Naxos

[Robin Lumsden]

It is a fascinating hobby, isn't it?

Yes.............and this is a fascinating thread! :jumping:

[Thomas W]

Just for your own reference and to make sure nobody mistakes these for German versions, here are insignia from the Russian Shock Battalions and Battalions of Death:

http://ww1.milua.org.../batsmerti1.jpg

[Sergeant 08]

Just for your own reference and to make sure nobody mistakes these for German versions, here are insignia from the Russian Shock Battalions and Battalions of Death:

http://ww1.milua.org.../batsmerti1.jpg

Really interesting, Thomas! Why? I have seen comparable skulls during last months.

In one auction a skull on an armband and the seller stated it is Freikorps!

Edited October 19, 2009 by Sergeant 08

[Thomas W]

To make sure you don't get even more confused, here's the death head of the Italian Arditi or shock troops, wearing a laurel wreath and carrying a dagger in it's teeth:

Edited October 19, 2009 by Thomas W

[Sergeant 08]

To make sure you don't get even more confused, here's the death head of the Italian Arditi or shock troops, wearing a laurel wreath and carrying a dagger in it's teeth:

Freikorps Schwarze Jaeger!

I think we had already discussed the photo in another forum. The black skull on the cap looks similar like the Italian pattern (could be dagger in the teeth?).

Edited October 19, 2009 by Sergeant 08

[Thomas W]

More evidence of how regulations weren't strictly followed even in the elite Garde-Reserve-Pionier-Regiment:

On the left is Lt. Jünger, commander of Detached Platoon Jünger, and on the right is an Unteroffizier. Lt. Jünger wears an enlisted man's Totenkopf of dark-gray cloth, sewn to the cuff of his Bluse in the position worn by enlisted men. The Unteroffizier, on the other hand, wears an officer's Totenkopf embroidered in silver thread, with no cloth backing, and it's in a weird nonregulation position at the top of his cuff. Very odd.

[Sergeant 08]

More evidence of how regulations weren't strictly followed even in the elite Garde-Reserve-Pionier-Regiment:

On the left is Lt. Jünger, commander of Detached Platoon Jünger, and on the right is an Unteroffizier. Lt. Jünger wears an enlisted man's Totenkopf of dark-gray cloth, sewn to the cuff of his Bluse in the position worn by enlisted men. The Unteroffizier, on the other hand, wears an officer's Totenkopf embroidered in silver thread, with no cloth backing, and it's in a weird nonregulation position at the top of his cuff. Very odd.

Another photo which shows, that not everything was confirm to the rules.

Edited October 21, 2009 by Sergeant 08

[Thomas W]

Another theory about the black Totenkopf: Oberleutnant Ludwig Charles Theune, commander of the 10th Company of the Garde-Reserve-Pionier-Regiment and author of Sturmtruppen und Flammenwerfer, stated after the war that the regiment evolved from Sturmbataillon Nr. 5 (Rohr). First came the assault battalion (March 3, 1915), followed by the flamethrower battalion (March 15, 1915) and then the regiment (April 20, 1916). Theune also said that all the weapons and tactics used by the flamethrower regiment were first developed by the assault battalion.

Sturmbataillon Rohr was composed of pioneers, whose color was black. We know that in February of 1918 the men of Sturmbataillon Nr. 5 (Rohr) awarded themselves an unofficial sleeve badge consisting of a crowned white-metal "W" on an oval cloth patch. Is it possible that prior to July 28, 1916, the date that the Totenkopf was officially awarded to the flamethrower regiment, that some of Rohr's flamethrower men were already wearing an unofficial sleeve Totenkopf in black, signifying their service in the pioneer branch? Since Crown Prince Wilhelm took a special interest in Rohr's men, maybe he saw the black badge with red eyes and nose and changed the colors to closer match the Totenkopf he wore as his personal symbol.

My theory is based on two undated photos in my collection. They show a Kleif shock troop (Kleifstosstrupp) being demonstrated for Hauptmann Bernhard Reddemann, commander of the 3rd and 4th Guard Pioneer Battalions, in early 1916, I think. If Ludwig Charles Theune is right, these men are probably Rohr's men, showing Reddemann how to use an 11-man Kleif shock troop in action. Reddemann is taking notes, by the way.

None of the men wear sleeve Totenkopf--except for one, a flamethrower carrier. His badge is very dark, maybe black. You can see it's on his left arm in the "Rohr" position, above the cuff, and it's an oval badge with a round, skull-shaped device on the cloth. If the badge first originated with Rohr's flamethrower men and was later replaced by a version designed by the Crown Prince, that would explain why nobody's ever heard of it before.

Edited October 24, 2009 by Thomas W

[Thomas W]

Here's an enhanced version of the sleeve badge:

[Sergeant 08]

Thomas, it is an amazing theory about the black skull! Thanks so far for your thoughts and the photos.

Edited October 24, 2009 by Sergeant 08

[Thomas W]

Here's the larger view of the Kleifstosstrupp, consisting of two Kleiftrupps, four hand-grenade throwers, and one shock-troop leader.