Badges For Some Scary People .... The RSM!

[Paul L Murphy]

The Pakistani copies lack the proper level of detail and shape around the faces of the heraldric animals, and also the quality of the thread is poorer. This is especially noticable in areas such as the silver thread base on which the motto is written.

However it should be noted that the current MOD issue bullion badges are no longer made in England, they are now made in Pakistan.

As for stopping..... NEVER !! Now to get more of the smaller badges for the different regiments and corps and then move back in time to King's Crown pieces etc.

[Mervyn Mitton]

How the mighty are fallen... incredible to think we are using the factories in Pakistan. Almost (but not quite) gives them credibility !

How did my value compare with fact - the last one we had was about five years ago and - I think - it sold for £90. Mervyn

[Paul L Murphy]

How the mighty are fallen... incredible to think we are using the factories in Pakistan. Almost (but not quite) gives them credibility !

How did my value compare with fact - the last one we had was about five years ago and - I think - it sold for £90. Mervyn

Let's just say I managed to get an absolute bargain :whistle:

[Paul L Murphy]

Here is my first King's Crown RSM badge. This is a very nice pair of metal badges for wear in shirt sleeve order on a leather wrist band. One still has the metal backing plate. A little bit of wear from being polished when in use but that adds to the character and they have toned lovely.

[coldstream]

Paul,thanks for showing your excellent Sergeant Major badges. With regards to the Guards example there was an even more impressive and elaborate version worn, I believe, during the reign of Queen Victoria.

This consisted of the badge shown worn over four gold chevrons. There is a photograph of this being worn in the excellent little publication 'The Diary of Sgt McMillan' by Keith Hingle and which was published by The Coldstream Guards in the early 90's.

As usual with these things I can't locate my copy of this book but it's well worth digging out if you can find a copy.

[Paul L Murphy]

What a coincidence, I am reading that at the moment. I presume you are referring to the photo of RSM Carter of the 1st Bn Coldstreams ? It is a pity that it is a B&W photo since these Victoria era badges are very impressive when seen in colour.

I have heard a rumour that they are introducing a new badge for the Garrison Sergeant Major which will be the RSM badge on 4 gold chevrons. Hopefully it is true since it would be nice to see the badge come back.

[coldstream]

A coincidence indeed Paul, I haven't heard about the new badge for Garrison Sergeant Major's, I'll try to find out a bit about it from some old collegues who are still serving. I wonder if Glenn has heard anything?

[Mervyn Mitton]

Interesting about the Garrison Sgt.Maj. - I always wondered if he had a special insignia. Does that mean at present , he only wears the one illustrated ? There used to be so many of the wrist band insignia - but, come to think of it I haven't seen one for years. Was it discontinued ?

[coldstream]

Mervyn

That's correct, the standard Guards insignia is worn by the Garrison Sergeant Major. :cheers:

[speedytop]

Hi Paul,

Post 29:

"Here is my first King's Crown RSM badge..."

Why it is a RSM? I think, that it is a W.O. 1?

I'm learning.

Uwe

[Paul L Murphy]

Hi Paul,

Post 29:

"Here is my first King's Crown RSM badge..."

Why it is a RSM? I think, that it is a W.O. 1?

I'm learning.

Uwe

WO 1 is the rank, RSM is an appointment. All RSMs are WO1s but not all WO1s are RSMs. Normally the badge of rank is the same, the main exception is in the Guards regiments where only an RSM wears the large size badge on the forearm. Guard's WO1s who are not RSMs wear the small WO1 badge on the lower part of the sleeve.

Hence that metal badge is both for a non Guards RSM and a WO1.

I chose the name of the thread since I thing that the phrase RSM conjures up a more vivid image than the phrase WO1 even though the latter is the correct rank title.

[Graham Stewart]

The rank RSM for the regular infantry actually only appeared on the advent of the Great War, which is when the 'Royal Arms' badge was adopted prior to that the rank was simply 'Sergeant Major', the badge of rank being a large crown worn on the lower right cuff in both bullion with full dress or khaki worsted with SD. On the introduction of the rank 'RSM', in compliance with the introduction of the four company system, the eight Colour Sergeants within the infantry were also re-ranked - the four senior 'Colours' then became 'Company Sgt Majors', they adopted the crown of the former Sgt Major, but slightly smaller as their badge of rank. The four junior 'Colours' then became 'Company Quartermaster Sgt's'. Their badge of rank was the crown worn above the three sgt's stripes.

The Colour Sgt's had their own bullion badge of rank for full dress, which was the crossed union flags above which was a crown above three chevrons, but there was no equivalent for SD and a compromise was adopted where a large crown was worn above the three chevrons. As stated above this was to become the badge of the CQMS the restructuring of the infantry ranks.

The RQMS retained his rank and badge which was four inverted chevrons on the lower cuff above which was a small star.

The system gets even more complicated when looking at the rank and badges of those serving with the Volunteers/Territorials

Edited September 5, 2009 by Graham Stewart

[jagwca]

I find the re-introduction of the Royal Arms over Four Stripes for the Garrison Segt.Major rather facinating now what about the Accademy Segt.Major which some people concider to be the senior appointment?

John

[Graham Stewart]

23rd April - St.George Day and a beautiful illustration of the RQMS of the Northumberland Fusiliers by Brian Fosten, clearly showing his badge of rank. This uniform was worn from 1881 through to c1902, when a new pointed cuff was adopted and facing colours were re-introduced for non-Royal regiments.

[coldstream]

Thought I would post this scan to illustrate the depth of detail in this Regimental Sergeant Major's rank badge. Taken from a photograph in my collection showing High ranking Officers inspecting The Coldstream Guards in the field.

The modern badges appear very flat in comparison to the one shown here which although worn on service dress appears to be of excellent quality and depth.

[Graham Stewart]

Sgt Major Morgan, 4th Bn, Northumberland Fusiliers, 1904 wearing the single crown of that rank. Note he also wears an officers pattern full dress tunic as denotes his rank.

[peter monahan]

Sgt Major Morgan, 4th Bn, Northumberland Fusiliers, 1904 wearing the single crown of that rank. Note he also wears an officers pattern full dress tunic as denotes his rank.

Nice one! When I took on the post of SM to the "Crown Forces, North America", a group of units who re-enact the War of 1812, I was the first SM to wear a tarted up NCO,s uniform as opposed to a mock officer's kit. My tunic is single breasted, not double, I still wear my Sergeant's sash and 4 stripes on my right arm. Previous holders of the post/rank have worn officer's tunics and hooks but as there are only 2 or 3 contemporary illustrations of what was a very new rank in 1812, one has a deal of freedom in designing the uniform. I like the idea of just the crow, though. Very classy!

Peter

[Graham Stewart]

23rd April - St.George Day and a beautiful illustration of the RQMS of the Northumberland Fusiliers by Brian Fosten, clearly showing his badge of rank. This uniform was worn from 1881 through to c1902, when a new pointed cuff was adopted and facing colours were re-introduced for non-Royal regiments.

[Mervyn Mitton]

Sgt. Major Morgan is a little - 'porky' - he obviously led from the front of the parade ground !! Actually, what I wanted to know, is from the actual photo, can you make out his first medal. Looks like the 1877-9 Sth. African issue - but was this Regt. present here at that time. Perhaps he transferred ?

[Graham Stewart]

I've none of my regimental histories here with me, but I seem to recall that the 5th Fusiliers(later Northumberland Fusiliers) had served in South Africa during an earlier period, but can't recall dates or places. The 4th Bn,N.F. in which Morgan served was one of the new regular NF Battalions raised during the later South African War(1899-1902), although I'm certain the battalion never served there.

Edited September 6, 2009 by Graham Stewart

[Paul L Murphy]

Here we have another full dress badge, this time it is on a cherry red backing. I am not sure if this is RAMC or Queen's Hussars.

Followed by a full dress badge on a beige background.

And a nice mess dress badge on a black background.

[Paul L Murphy]

Up next we have quite a scarce badge. This is the badge worn by the ranks of Conductor in the Royal Logistic's Corps or Master Gunner in the Royal Artillery. I believe this is the mess dress version (it is 5.5cm across the wreath) not the full dress (which is larger)

[Paul L Murphy]

And finally for today we go back to the Guard's RSM. This is a service dress badge which is earlier than the previous example shown. I believe this is from the 1970s.

[TacHel]

Here are the Canadian ranks for RSM (Army), CWO (Air Force) and CPO1 (Navy).

These are the heavy bullion badges worn on the mess kit and thus the detailing isn't as crisp as on the normal parade tunic badges.

Army = red backing

Air Force = blue backing

Navy = black backing

The basic ranks of RSM, CWO and CPO1 are the Canadian coat of arms.

The addition of the tri-service crest under the basic rank denotes a senior appointment such as Brigade or Divisional RSM, Fleet CPO1 or Air Group or Air Division CWO.

Edited September 10, 2009 by TacHel

[TacHel]

The basic rank over a Laurel Wreath denotes the senior NCO of the branch, 1 of each in Canada. RSM of the Army. CPO1 of the Navy. CWO of the Air Force.

Edited September 10, 2009 by TacHel