Badges for some slightly less scary people...the WO2

[speedytop]

Mervyn,

thank you for your comment.

The reverse of the badge in Post 23 is complete white, a white plate and white threads:

Uwe

[coldstream]

Uwe.

Never seen anything like this crown. very interesting. Can you remember where it came from as a starter clue to its ID. Hopefully Leigh will have some idea. :cheers:

[Mervyn Mitton]

Uwe - thankyou for the reverse - it needed to be seen. The board and stitching have nothing to do with the badge - added to make a display item. I find the khaki cloth confusing - has a very distinctive thread pattern - not what I would expect to see on a khaki tunic.

Are we perhaps looking at something which is not military - say, perhaps an early gamekeeper on a big estate ? I still think the Crown has a similarity to the pre-1830 style - but who knows. Hopefully someone else will look at it and make an instant identification - as Coldstream says - Leigh may have an idea ?

[Graham Stewart]

Post 23 isn't British, but certainly looks European, with it's distinctive crown. The shape reminds of more Eastern Europe than west, perhaps Imperial Russia or around that area. Service Dress(SD) for the British Army didn't appear until the beginning of the last century for wear at home in the UK, although Khaki Drill(KD) had been worn for a number of years prior to that while overseas. Prior to that scarlet dominated the field both at home and abroad.

[Mervyn Mitton]

Graham - I agree with you on the type of badges we are showing not being used then - however,there has to be a possibility of a naive UK style - possibly made by a village seamstress from a picture and for a local use i.e. gamekeeper, estate gatekeeper etc.. I also agree with you that a number of European crowns had a similarity when in outline - but, the sequins and little uprights are very close to the Edward Crown.

Unless Uwe can remember where he bought it, or, someone knows of it's original purpose, then we may never be sure ? I brought it to attention because it reminded me, very strongly, of some of the Crowns on Georgian truncheons and they cover a long period (1714 - 1830)

[Graham Stewart]

I'm afraid the British Army is governed by 'patterns', which in the case of rank are strictly adhered to and as such something like this unlikely to be ever be worn, especially by a WOII. As for a form of "livery" badge, again I'm not convinced, especially with a khaki background. I still think you're looking at a European Army post 1900 and it may even be a collar badge or shoulder strap badge rather than for wear on the arm as a source of rank.

[Mervyn Mitton]

Graham - you're probably right, but wouldn't it be good if it did turn out to be English. Let's see what others suggest.

[leigh kitchen]

WWII printed economy badges, WOII & RQMS:

[leigh kitchen]

I don't know what this is, it was sewn to the lower rght sleeve of a white shell jacket from which it was removed 19 years ago. The jacket had 9 buttonholes rather than the usual 8:

[leigh kitchen]

A WOII wrist band showng the clear outline of sergeants stripes worn on the leather band previously:

[leigh kitchen]

Black embroidered Kings CRown on KD - RAF? A Rifle's unit, Indian or other Commonwealth?

[leigh kitchen]

WOII & RQMS insignia, Kings Crown, KRRC black embroidered on red:

[leigh kitchen]

Royal Marine RQMS, obtained from a Commando unit n Northern Ireland, 1979.

As I've said n the "RSM" thread, I thnk that these were newly introduced in this light brown colour.

The strap has holes punched in it to take the WOI's insgnia (you can just see one of the holes at le left edge of the crown as viewed), but the RQMS badge beng wider was fitted by bending its loop fttings around the edges of the leather backing:

[leigh kitchen]

The green on red badge in post 2 looks like it's the green on beech of the Women's Royal Army Corps, & is there a possibility that the bullion badge in post 22 is on the same backing rather than red?

The badge in post 23 does'nt look Britsh to me - as soon as you see it, you think european, well, I do anyway.

Greek? Spanish? Italian?

Edited September 16, 2009 by leigh kitchen

[leigh kitchen]

An anodised aluminium St Edwards Crown on red felt backing & RQMS badge for Mess Dress.

Both of these badge belonged to the Northamptonshire Regment / Royal Anglian TA WOI I mentioned in a post on the "RSM" thread:

[Paul L Murphy]

The green on red badge in post 2 looks like it's the green on beech of the Women's Royal Army Corps, & is there a possibility that the bullion badge in post 22 is on the same backing rather than red?

The badge in post 23 does'nt look Britsh to me - as soon as you see it, you think european, well, I do anyway.

Greek? Spanish? Italian?

Leigh,

Many thanks, I have corrected post 2. The badge in post 22 is a very different colour from the WRAC badge when in the hand, it is definitely cherry red.

:cheers:

[leigh kitchen]

Could it be cerise? The Cheshire Regiment?

[leigh kitchen]

Both the plain crown and the crown in a wreath are worn by a WO 2. I do not think they have the rank of WO 3 in the British Army. The crown alone is worn by a "Warrant Officer Class 2 - Sergeant Major" and the crown and wreath by "Warrant Officer Class 2 - Quartermaster".

The significance of the crown (small or large) & crown in wreath has varied over the years.

There was a WOIII, introduced in 1938.

On 1/10/38 the War Office announced that about 1000 NCO's were to be promoted, the first selections for WOIII, men of special charachter & abilty to command platoons & equivalent positions filled by subalterns.

All WOIII's were to be commanders trained in officers duties & tactics, weapons, & admin. They would also be available for officers duties other than command, such as signals & transport. They were traned to be Orderly Officers, to sit on boards of enquiry & on Regimental & Garrison Boards, they handled finances & accounts.

Powers of WOI's & WOII's were also widened.

WOIII's were introduced into Cavalry of the Line, RA, Foot Guards, Infantry of the Line, & RTC, & into certain units of the R Sigs. Searchlight units, which were transfering from RE to RA at that time were also to have WOIII's.

ACI 804 of 1940 announced that there would be no further promotions to WOIII, holders of the rank continued to hold it until promoted, demoted, or left the army.

In 1947, when the first post WWII alterations to badges of rank occurred, there were very few WOIII's left.

ACI 398 of 17/9/1938 stated that the newly introduced WOIII would wear in Service Dress (Battle Dress had not yet been adopted) a crown as previously worn by Company Sergeant Majors etc, WOII's would now wear in Service Dress the crown in wreath, which remained as the badge for all WOII's until 1947.

[leigh kitchen]

The brass crown in post no. 1 - it was also worn in Service Dress, Battle Dress & KD.

[leigh kitchen]

The RQMS badge for wear on Combat Dress - introduced in the early 80's?

I have an idea that I got this from a Commando unit in NI in 1979, & at that time the full range of such badges were being introduced through the army & Royal Marines, including the RQMS & WOI badges which were replacing the black embroidered on green versions worn by RM, also shown.

[Paul L Murphy]

Could it be cerise? The Cheshire Regiment?

That could also be a possibility. Is it possible to post something that shows the difference between cerise and cherry red ? A lot of these subtle distinctions in facing colour are lost on me ! :speechless:

[leigh kitchen]

I'll see if I have an old copy of "The Regiment", I think I have the Cheshires - I was never a great fan of the series, with its constant duplication & its missed opportunities re info shown in photos & text, but I have a few.

The rank badges re Sergeant Majors - in 1802, Sgt Majors & Quartermaster Sgts wore 4 chevrons, points down, on the upper arm.

RSMs wore 4 chevrons with a crown prior to 1902, when they adopted a large crown on the lower arm, & in 1915 when they were designated WOI's this was replaced with a small verson of the Royal Arms.

In 1914 the rank of Colour Sergeant had given way to CSM & QMS in the infantry, who wore a crown over 3 chevrons, points down, on the upper arm, as did Staff Sergeants.

In 1915 Army Order 70 decreed that Company, Battery, Squadron & Troop Sergeant Majors became WOII's, wearing a crown on the lower arms.

RQMS wore 4 chevrons, points up, on the lower sleeve, with a star above, but upon becoming WOII's in 1915 adopted the crown in laurel wreath.

Ranking above RSM in some specialist branches were Conductors of the Army Ordnance Corps & Staff Sergeants 1st Class of the Army Service Corps & the Army Pay Corps, wearing a large crown within a laurel wreath on the lower arm, but this was replaced by the Royal Arms within a laurel wreath in 1918.

The Royal Artillery had Master Gunner ranks, which incorporated the crown / Royal Arms within the wreath badge.

A couple of Kings Crowns, showing obvious manufacturers differences:

Edited September 17, 2009 by leigh kitchen

[leigh kitchen]

Kings Crown Crown within wreath, & St Edwards Crown version:

[leigh kitchen]

St Edwards Crown badges showing slight manufacturers differences, one is stained with army ration pack condensed milk.

[leigh kitchen]

Comparison of one of the large WOII / CSM's badges above with the small crown as worn above the chevrons by Colour Sergeants etc: