Bavarian Awards and wearing different classes

[Phil Steele]

Hi Guys

Quick question...was it common for a Bavarian soldier to be awarded two classes of the BMVK and if so would it be the norm to wear both? For example a BMVK3X and BMVK2X on the same medal bar.

Phil

[Paul C]

Hi Guys

Quick question...was it common for a Bavarian soldier to be awarded two classes of the BMVK and if so would it be the norm to wear both? For example a BMVK3X and BMVK2X on the same medal bar.

Phil

The highest grade was always worn and a lesser grade was not. For example a BMV2 was worn at the neck and a BMV3 was not worn on the bar. However in the case of an order with swords a Red Eagle Order 2 with swords would be worn at the neck and a Red Eagle Order 4 would be worn on the bar.

[saschaw]

Phil, you're only asking regarding Bavarian Military Merit Crosses, right? That's the EM and NCO grade while the Military Merit order was awarded to officers. Rules for both are similar.

In WW1, it was common for Bavarian soldiers to be awarded two different grades of MVK/MMC. One was only allowed to wear one class, though. The same rule for officers and their MVOs/MMOs. If a NCO made it to officer and got a merit cross as well as an order, he was allowed to wear both, actually one of each. Also, pre-war awards without swords may be worn together with war time sword classes.

One more interresting point: crosses (and orders) with swords that had been awarded in different wars(!) are worn together. Ritter von Epp must have had the most, decorated for Boxer rebellion in China, colonial wars in German South West Africa and WW1. Don't remember if he as well had a peace time order...

[Phil Steele]

Thanks for the replies. I thought that was the case also. The reason I asked was that I was looking at a small medal bar in the hands of a dealer and it displays EK2, BMVK3X and BMVK2X. I wasnt sure if that should be correct or not and the bar certainly looks the part (old looking and certainly looks to have seen better days). Again many thanks.

Phil

[Guest Rick Research]

Different classes of with swords awards were worn together. The only error would be the same class with swords and BOTH "with Crown" AND without. Even then, there are often cases in the no rules 1920s when ex-officers wore a BMV4XmKr AND a BMV4X when properly the without Crown had to be physically returned before the with Crown grade of the same class was issued.

[Phil Steele]

Good stuff...might have to add that one to my collection.

Phil

[TacHel]

What a coincidence, I was about to post the same question!

Last week at a gun show I saw for sale a WW1 Bavarian set and found it odd to see 2 classes of the Military Merit Cross worn.

The set was comprised of:

Bav. Mil. Merit Cross 2nd class with swords and crown,

Bav. Mil. Merit Cross 3rd class with swords and crown,

EK2,

Kyfhauser.

So this is actually legit??

[Stogieman]

Just remember for every rule, there was almost always someone who flaunted it......

[Stogieman]

PS: Phil, unless your bar is a civilian mount (ie "frack" style)the precedence is totally wrong for a Bavarian, pre-1934. I'm going to guess it is a civilian mount as the reverse order would be correct....

[Phil Steele]

The order is MVK2X, MVK3X and EK2....I guess that makes it a civilian mount but please excuse my ignorance but what is a civilian mount. I know the Frack style or are these one and the same. If so can you tell why they did this style.

Phil

[Stogieman]

OK, sorry but now I'm confused! Your initial post stated "EK2, etc.", last post reversed the order. Usually when discussing a bar we read "Left to right" for precedence. If your bar is (left to right) BMVK2X, BMVK3X, EK2 then it is correct for a Bavarian pre-1934/5. However, without any images it's impossible to comment on authenticity.

Frack bars were made for wear usually with a civilian top-coat/dress coat in mind. Because they stretch from low up to high under/along the lapel; the highest precedence award would be at the top to signify its' importance.

[TacHel]

In the case of the bar I saw... The fact the EK2 was 3rd and that there was a Kyfhauser medal in lieu of a frontkampferkreuz... IMHO, definitely denotes a pre 1934 bar... Isn't it in 34 or 35 that the new order of precedence came out?

[Ulsterman]

Yes, BUT while the HK was awarded as a national WW1 participants' award, the unofficial awards" weren't banned outright until later in 1935. There was a @ 18 month overlap that coincided pretty much with the Nazis coopting the Stahlhelm.

After the Stahlhelm was disbanded and "coordinated" with other groups (notibly the SA)it became the official war vets association.

[Guest Rick Research]

Was the BMVK2XmKr/BMVK3XmKr/EK2/Kyffhäuserbund a flat bottomed hook back so the awards slide off, or were they mounted in front--permanently or with clips-- and positioned so that they were level across the bottom?

If hook back, anybody could have slid anything on (or off) at any time.

If mounted permanently/correctly, that would be a very interesting bar, because there is no long service award. A BMVK3XmKr was earned by Sergeants (the German army rank term) as an initial award and by lower ranks as two separate awards-- first a BMVK3X and then the Crown added. A BMVK2X would not be surprising with a BMVK3XmKr-- just one rank up to earn that. But to go up one rank and THEN be decorated a further tieme in that same class = THREE Bavarian dceorations (worn as two) and the EK, for a (somehow) Senior Sergeant with no long service entitlement.

The Leutnant in the photo above was very much indeed a super hero. Consider that a reserve officer by late war flew through candidate ranks in 18 months, and multiple awards at that level before even being commisioned and THEN the BMVO4X is, literally, amazing. Alas, a peculiarity of wartime Bavarian Lists is that ONLY the highets wartime class is shown.

[TacHel]

Was the BMVK2XmKr/BMVK3XmKr/EK2/Kyffhäuserbund a flat bottomed hook back so the awards slide off, or were they mounted in front--permanently or with clips-- and positioned so that they were level across the bottom? If hook back, anybody could have slid anything on (or off) at any time. If mounted permanently/correctly, that would be a very interesting bar, because there is no long service award.

It was a really well done permanent court mount, the only way to remove anything would entail damaging the ribbons (at the front). The suspension rings being under said ribbons.

A BMVK3XmKr was earned by Sergeants (the German army rank term) as an initial award and by lower ranks as two separate awards-- first a BMVK3X and then the Crown added. A BMVK2X would not be surprising with a BMVK3XmKr-- just one rank up to earn that. But to go up one rank and THEN be decorated a further tieme in that same class = THREE Bavarian dceorations (worn as two) and the EK, for a (somehow) Senior Sergeant with no long service entitlement.

I honestly don't recall seeing a service award... But I must admit that my gaze was fixed on those 2 MVKs.

If I understand you correctly, one would earn an BMVK3X "before" being entitled to the crown on the same award?

So this set would be more plausible if the BMVK3X had no crown? (I'm confused now)...

Edited December 10, 2009 by TacHel

[Phil Steele]

My mistake stogieman the EK2 is the third in line reading from left to right and the MVKx3 does have a crown which I also omitted to tell. From what I can gather this is quite acceptable which does answer my original question. Many thanks. (I would have posted the picture but not sure of the legalities not to mention the uproar it might cause posting a picture from a dealers website.)

Phil

[saschaw]

Different classes of with swords awards were worn together.

Rick, are you sure? I'm talking about rules, not about what someone did. I know many did, but still it was against the rules - against the rules I think to remember.

[Claudio]

Some Bavarians were very naughty...

Edited December 10, 2009 by Claudio

[Claudio]

the miniatures...

[Phil Steele]

Beautiful medal bar Claudio...thankyou for sharing it.

PHIL:love:

[Guest Rick Research]

Claudio's Bavarian was COMPLETELY naughty. SAME Class without swords was REPLACED by the same Class WITH Crown-- which would not have been issued by the Orders Chancery until the first one had been returned.

I know this entire subject has come up before and is still patiently awaiting archeological re-discovery in the back pages, but here is a signed receipt from Hauptmann Julius Bielke in 1915, acknowledging receipt of his BMV4X and attesting that his heirs would make sure it was returned after his death (quite jolly, signed at the front )

annnnnddddd, notations from the Orders Chancery in 1918 certifying that it had been returned so that his BMV4XmKr could be issued. :whistle:

[TacHel]

Rick, I just need some help in understanding here...

Are you saying that the crown on an BMVKX is more or less a second award of the same class? Or a promotion within the same class?

[Guest Rick Research]

Not only both but also, to persons of certain ranks, an INITIAL "first time" award.

For instance: a Major would normally have received the BMVO4XmKr as "one" award, while Captains and Lieutenants got a BMV4X as initial "first" award, but could earn the Crown to that Class for a second award.

So what did a Major get for HIS "second time around?" A BMV3X-- and I believe THAT is the circumstance under which both of THOSE would no longer have been worn, with the lower class returned for the senior grade.

So...

it all depended. :whistle:

[saschaw]

As can be seen on OTL aD Bauernschmidt's medal bar.

Still, I'm almost convinced two classes of Bavarian military merit order with swords are not worn together, unless we're talking about the officer's cross grade or awards from different wars.

Anyone?