Pre-1934 medal bar.

[M Hunter]

Gentlemen,

This is the latest addition to my small medal bar collection...again, in keeping with my collection theme of Hanseatic Crosses!

I am seeking to further my knowledge on the 3rd medal: Prussian General Honour Medal. The internet has not weilded much in the line of precise information. Was it awarded for Merit? I have discovered that they were awarded in Bronze and Silver. Mine appears to be silver.

Also, what kind of chap would have worn this bar? Enlisted Man? An Officer?

My thanks and compliments of the season to my fellow GMIC members.

Matt

[M Hunter]

The reverse.

[M Hunter]

Note the wear from the Hanseatic cross on the Prussian medal.

Edited December 24, 2009 by M Hunter

[M Hunter]

Reverse of medal. Translation please? :blush:

[Schießplatzmeister]

Hello:

A very nice group. This was an Officer's group. The 25 Year Prussian Long-Service Cross was for Officer's only. The Prussian General Honor Decorations were awarded in silver until 1912 when awards were changed to the much more economical bronze. The inscription of the reverse is basically translated as "State (County) Merit". I see a bit of damage to the ribbon for this award. It may have possibly been a Prussian Red Eagle Order IV at one point. Both the RAO IV and the AEZ were awarded for merit or long-service in civil service positions. Since your fellow has a Hamburg Hanseatic Cross for WWI service, there is also the possiblity that he was a naval Officer. Unfortunately, this Officer's bar cannot be researched as to the specific recipient as this is a very common combination of awards.

Best regards,

"SPM"

[saschaw]

I'm sorry but I have to disagree with SPM in some very points.

From a 1914 decree on, the "Dienstauszeichnungskreuz" could be awarded to old NCOs either and was no more an "officers' only" award. In combination with an "Allgemeines Ehrenzeichen" on post-1914 bars, we see most likely the medal bar of an old (or ex) NCO.

Furthermore, the Allgemeines Ehrenzeichen was still awarded after the creation of the medal in bronze. That was just another class, likely created to decorate other persons (who may have e.g. been to junior for the silver medal, or to low in their social status).

With the ribbon damaged I'm not sure if there might have been a change. If there was and the bar used to carry a Red Eagle order 4th class, it was an officer's. If there wasn't and it is as it always has been, this is an old NCO's.

[M Hunter]

Thank you both for your comments. I do not believe that there was a Red Eagle Order on this bar. There is the trace of the Hanseatic Cross on the medal as i pointed out in a previous post, making me think that this medal has been on this bar for a long time! There is similar wear on all medals.

The Prussian medal used to be over the ribbon (medals are all on hooks) and may have been like this for some time causing wear and tear to the ribbon. The EK2 ribbon and the DA25 ribbon have similar wear and tear. I put the medal back under the ribbon again.

Matt

Edited December 25, 2009 by M Hunter

[Guest Rick Research]

The backing cloth gives no clues as to whether it was worn on civilian clothes or a military/naval uniform in retirement but Sascha is correct--

the Silver AEz was generally given to long serving non-commissioned officers at 18 years into their service. (There were always exceptions-- future Grand Admiral Dönitz got one somehow while still a Midshipman) Civil servants of NCO-equivalent usually got one after about 25 years of service.

Presence of the 1897 Centenary Medal suggests a long serving Sergeant or Petty Officer or Warrant Officer, reaching the normal 18 years duty before the war.

The 1914 regulations changes extending the XXV Years Service Cross to military officials and noncommissioned ranks only came into actual use after the war since Prussia and the navy suspended bestowals for the duration.

So this fellow survived the war, got his XXV circa discharge in 1920... and by Weimar regulations, would have been "bumped out" as a Leutnant aD from either the army or navy. Anyone with 18 years of pension time (the war counted double for regulars, as did pre-war overseas service) or a year's frontline service as an Officer Deputy was so commissioned on discharge.

So he EARNED these as a non-commissioned officer but WORE them as a retired officer.

[P.F.]

The backing cloth gives no clues as to whether it was worn on civilian clothes or a military/naval uniform in retirement but Sascha is correct--

the Silver AEz was generally given to long serving non-commissioned officers at 18 years into their service. (There were always exceptions-- future Grand Admiral Dönitz got one somehow while still a Midshipman) Civil servants of NCO-equivalent usually got one after about 25 years of service.

Presence of the 1897 Centenary Medal suggests a long serving Sergeant or Petty Officer or Warrant Officer, reaching the normal 18 years duty before the war.

The 1914 regulations changes extending the XXV Years Service Cross to military officials and noncommissioned ranks only came into actual use after the war since Prussia and the navy suspended bestowals for the duration.

So this fellow survived the war, got his XXV circa discharge in 1920... and by Weimar regulations, would have been "bumped out" as a Leutnant aD from either the army or navy. Anyone with 18 years of pension time (the war counted double for regulars, as did pre-war overseas service) or a year's frontline service as an Officer Deputy was so commissioned on discharge.

So he EARNED these as a non-commissioned officer but WORE them as a retired officer.

Great analysis Rick!

Nice bar Matt!

Pierce

Edited December 26, 2009 by luftkreig

[M Hunter]

The backing cloth gives no clues as to whether it was worn on civilian clothes or a military/naval uniform in retirement but Sascha is correct--

the Silver AEz was generally given to long serving non-commissioned officers at 18 years into their service. (There were always exceptions-- future Grand Admiral Dönitz got one somehow while still a Midshipman) Civil servants of NCO-equivalent usually got one after about 25 years of service.

Presence of the 1897 Centenary Medal suggests a long serving Sergeant or Petty Officer or Warrant Officer, reaching the normal 18 years duty before the war.

The 1914 regulations changes extending the XXV Years Service Cross to military officials and noncommissioned ranks only came into actual use after the war since Prussia and the navy suspended bestowals for the duration.

So this fellow survived the war, got his XXV circa discharge in 1920... and by Weimar regulations, would have been "bumped out" as a Leutnant aD from either the army or navy. Anyone with 18 years of pension time (the war counted double for regulars, as did pre-war overseas service) or a year's frontline service as an Officer Deputy was so commissioned on discharge.

So he EARNED these as a non-commissioned officer but WORE them as a retired officer.

Rick,

Thank you for this. I always like to hear what you make of a medal or ribbon bar. It is nice to get a bit of the back-story of these pieces of history.

Best regards to all.

Matt