Kronenorden with 50 years

[Karl]

Hallo,

preu?ischer Kronenorden 4. Klasse, 2. Modell.

How is your opinion about the originality of the 50?

Consider also the opened ring eye.

Thanks

Karl

[Karl]

next

[Karl]

next

[Karl]

next

[Karl]

last

[Daniel Murphy]

I am not crazy about the white solder on the disc and on the small loop. If this is supposed to a Gold piece, no way. If it is a later gilt piece then maybe real, but in my opinion it is borderline.

Dan Murphy

Edited December 18, 2005 by Daniel Murphy

[Stogieman]

Looks like a gilt PCO4, note the width at the bottom of the ring where the disc attaches? I'm thinking repair as to my eyes, both the 50disc and the cross are quite real. Very tough to find and I cannot recall ever seeing this piece faked... I think you're safe!

[Peter J]

Rick, this is really not my cup of tea, but the 1st class apparently is being faked. These two were recently sold as copies. The 1st class with "50" in gold and the 1st class golded silver, both accordingly marked.

Scary stuff

KR

Peter

Looks like a gilt PCO4, note the width at the bottom of the ring where the disc attaches? I'm thinking repair as to my eyes, both the 50disc and the cross are quite real. Very tough to find and I cannot recall ever seeing this piece faked... I think you're safe!

[Peter J]

2nd image

[Stogieman]

You have a thin, hollow stamped gold disc, real gold from the photo and I still believe the piece shown to be real. My opinion, for what it's worth.

[Peter J]

Rick, I have no problem with your point of wiew. My response wasn't directed towards the shown 4th class, but merely an attempt to illustrate two high-end fakes of the higher classes.

KR

Peter

[Stogieman]

My apologies Peter! I thought you meant the 4.kl. disc was bad, The fakes on the top grades/oaks I readily/heartily agree are bad.... I should have been clearer. I have not ever seen a bogus disc on a 3. or 4. Klasse Prussian Order of the Crown. Have not seen a fake disc in silver for the Red Eagle 4. Klasse, nor one with the Allgemeine Ehrenzeichen of either class. These "lower grade" orders with long service discs have been neglected by the fakers thus far.

Sadly, as with all things these days, the spiraling upward prices (I can only recall about 6 times last 2 or 3 years a lower grade like this has been offered in any venue) will attract their attention in very short order....

[Stogieman]

To compare, here's a 50 Year disc on a PCO3

[Stogieman]

Unfortunately, the scan of the reverse is a corrupted file that I have not figured out how to fix yet. HD Crashes are terrible things

[Peter J]

No worries Rick . As much as I hate to admit it, you'll most likely be proven correct in the future. Let us all hope it'll be rather later than sooner.

KR

Peter

[medalnet]

... These "lower grade" orders with long service discs have been neglected by the fakers thus far.

Sadly, as with all things these days, the spiraling upward prices (I can only recall about 6 times last 2 or 3 years a lower grade like this has been offered in any venue) will attract their attention in very short order....

Dear Stogie,

I hate to say this, but all jubilee numbers have been faked. Regardless of medal or order or grade. The best ones I have seen are again those elecrosculptured ones. Most were made in Wuppertal, Germany, as well as down south in Germany. The number of fakes is not that high, but they exist.

I have had a special interest in those numbers and have accumulated a fair number of awards with those numbers, to find out that they follow the same regularity as the orders they are attached to. Each manufacturer had its own "handwritting" and way of finishing them.

Fact is: very rare specialty awards. Imagine holding a red Eagle order for over 50, 60 or even 65 years....

[Schießplatzmeister]

Greetings folks:

Unfortunately, I concur with Medalnet. There are far too many Prussian KO and RAO (even 3rd and 4th class!) turning up with jubilee numerals, compared to the actual numbers that could have actually have been prepared/modified for wear by actual recipients upon completing 50 (+) years of holding the award as a recipient. Antique pieces are exceedingly rare and seldom encountered. The forgers can easily modify genuine badges for a bit of decent financial return for their minimal time and expense. There is a certain auction house in Germany which seems to have many of these types of items regularly offered.

The situation seems to be getting worse all of the time as forgeries of relatively common items are now cropping up. Also, there are exceedingly good copies of Orders now being made by jewelers with "old world" skills. Where there is money to be made the forgers and criminals (usually the same thing) will strike. We have joined the 3rd Reich medal and badge collectors in the struggle to keep our collections free of forgeries. Caveat Emptor!

Please understand that my comments in no way judge the piece listed at the top of this thread!

Thanks,

Schie?platzmeister

[Guest Rick Research]

It has always been my understanding that the 50, 60 or whatever did not apply to THAT decoration having been possessed that long, but that the PERSON was still serving "in harness" after that many years--

here is an example of a Crown Order 4th with "50" button being worn by Feldwebel Ferdinand Caville inscribed on his 68th birthday in 1905, after 50+ years in the Prussian army:

[attachmentid=20026]

Here is another example of 50 years of service, not of holding the Order-- Rechnungsrat W. Miersch, about whom I can come up with no biographical information, probably taken during WW1:

[attachmentid=20020]

Notice that the former SAXON (LD2) noncommissioned veteran of 1870 is wearing his two PRUSSIAN awards ahead of his Saxon WEC and lowly SA3b. His Red Eagle 4th with "50" may well have been awarded during WW1, since he has no 1866 cross.

[Les]

Without getting into the matter of specifics on whether a Jubilee number is real or not...and by the way, I agree with those who are saying these are turning up in larger quantities than there should be...let's remember that among the "royals" and upper nobility, were often given honorific military commissions at a young age into some of the presitiguous Garde units, and a medal or two to keep those adolsecent chests from looking bare.

I'm not saying that this justifies Jubilee numbers in any amounts, only that given the requirement of having held the award for 50, 60, or 65 years probably requires getting an early start in addition to being able to have what it takes to live a long life into advanced old age.

Les

[Guest Rick Research]

The point I am trying to make with these two examples is that to my understanding, and as these two examples clearly show, unquestionably the numbers do NOT refer to holding the grade of award to which the disk or oakleaves are attached for that many years, but that the PERSON had been serving for that many years.

Caville

[attachmentid=20024]

could not have held a Crown Order 4th Class (granted to him contrary to all regulations as a special award from the hand of the Kaiser) for 50 years-- before his 68th birthday. He was a literal "lifer" noncommissioned officer, and could NOT, as a very young and very junior soldier, have received a Crown Order 4th at age 18, in 1855-- six years before the Crown Order was created, BTW. (He was given the courtesy of retirement as a Leutnant aD, which he never held ON duty.)

Miersch,

[attachmentid=20025]

although I can't put a birthdate on him, likewise could not have held a Red Eagle 4th Class for 50 years (if "held," awarded no later than 1868) when he has the M1876+ Saxon Albert Order in a grade given to Lieutenants and the civil service equivalent.

I believe that it is simply wrong to say the grade of Order with a jubilee year attachment had been held in that grade for that long. The only actual "held for 50 years" attachment that I am aware of was the Crown to the Pour le Merite--

and that bears NO year number.

[Les]

Two comments:

(1) Wow....that's some "Schnurbart" that guy has! It would make even a cat envious.

(2) Rick, your contention about "length of service" seems to be borne out by a quick refernce to Hamelman's book on "Of Red Eagles and Royal Crowns". Page 51, has a refernce to the Jubilee device worn with the Crown Order, and notes that the honor medal was bestowed to an individual who accomplished his 50th -service- year (as a Catholic school teacher). The rest of the statute (issued in 1833) goes on to refer to length or service, rather than how long the award was held. The next page continues and from the context of the decree refers to length of service, rather than years the award was held.

Les

Edited December 22, 2005 by Les

[medalnet]

I believe that it is simply wrong to say the grade of Order with a jubilee year attachment had been held in that grade for that long. The only actual "held for 50 years" attachment that I am aware of was the Crown to the Pour le Merite--

and that bears NO year number.

Rick,

you are certainly correct. one should never post things here during work ours being distracted by "more important" things then medals ( well, is it?)

I believe the regulation in the statues is worded that way, the true meaning is the years served for King/Emperor and counrty!!!

I know of a Red Eagle Order 2nd class with oak leaf and jubilee number "65" given to a priest with a long career in a clerical office at the Prussian state. Holding the order for 65 years would be a real miracle.

[Stogieman]

Thank you gentlemen for clearing that up... Andreas' post this AM had me wondering. Rick the moustache looks hauntingly familiar....

[medalnet]

Here a little bar with a real "50":

[medalnet]

...and not the "65", but: