Medal bar for a Prussian horseholder?

[Bob Hunter]

The gold medal to the Red Eagle Order is on the low end of the scale so I'm guessing this was a Prussian horseholder or strap hanger of some sort.

[Bob Hunter]

reverse

[Guest Rick Research]

Don't know. Those are MUCH less common than the silver General Decoration medals which were basically for long service just like officers got Orders. With one of these, I think SOME sort of actual merit would have been involved.

Don't think I have ever seen an award document for one so no clue what sort of NCOs received them. There are very few in the Deck Officer corps of the navy, so can't generalize.

Yon bar wearer had his 18 years counting double time in by 1920 though and came out as a Leutnant aD, with that GOLD colored XV. Any of those I've come across documented were such types, trying to look like the XXV rather than the normal copper XVs.

So whoever this was, he may not have been a gentleman, but he left the military as an officer.

[Bob Hunter]

Thanks, Rick, I'm grateful for your insight.

[Guest Rick Research]

Among the many things I do not know about these would be:

WHY a Red Eagle Order Medal and ...

not a Crown Order Medal?

If one was only given to ranks above dotdotdot, I have no idea what that would be, as a clue. Haven't encountered enough of these to even have a statistical guesstimate basis.

[Bob Hunter]

Ahhhhhhh, say it ain't so, Rick! I thought you were the font of all imperial knowledge! I am soooooooo depressed.

[notned]

Nice Bar Bob!

How did you deduce he was a ? straphanger of a Horse man? interesting...Hmmm.

and yes it is Amazing how RR can 'read' as such, and tell a story from these bars...

we are so priveledged to have such a man in our Gentlemens group here!. His insight is just what we all want...to hear about our wee treasures...and be able to smile with the knowledge of Something! about our collecting habit! ... something about the lives of these men who fought and toiled for their country in their German way.

Rick! please do not worry Poor Bob...he has a weak heart...

Cheers,

Paul

Edited December 21, 2005 by notned

[Bob Hunter]

Paul, you shouldn't say things like that about Rick. He gets all gooey like a slug in a rain storm and he becomes difficult to deal with fantasizing his own omnipotence and lesser god-like qualities...

Since it was the entry level award of the RAO I assumed it was for an NCO perhaps a staffer. Staffers, be they officer or enlisted, are sometimes referred to as horseholders or strap hangers (as in commuting by train). Rick's term for these folks is Lounge Lizard but I call them staff rats or RAMFS (which is too crude for a gentlemen's forum).

I have my pictures somewhat organized and will begin to honor your request at long last.

Edited December 21, 2005 by Bob Hunter

[W McSwiggan]

On the vocabulary expansion axis - allow me to add that RAMF can alternately become REMF where the "E" equals echelon. A term used derisively by us combat hero types in Viet Nam and with pride by the REMFs who were rather proud of their survival odds...

Paul, you shouldn't say things like that about Rick. He gets all gooey like a slug in a rain storm and he becomes difficult to deal with fantasizing his own omnipotence and lesser god-like qualities...

Since it was the entry level award of the RAO I assumed it was for an NCO perhaps a staffer. Staffers, be they officer or enlisted, are sometimes referred to as horseholders or strap hangers (as in commuting by train). Rick's term for these folks is Lounge Lizard but I call them staff rats or RAMFS (which is too crude for a gentlemen's forum).

I have my pictures somewhat organized and will begin to honor your request at long last.

Edited December 21, 2005 by W McSwiggan

[Guest Rick Research]

I like lounge lizard! My mental image is always of Conrad Veidt smoking a cigarette through a holder and looking smugly sinister....

door openers, parade saluters, lighters of cigars...

all things for which staff officers got things

but the lower the rank, the more had to be done for less reward.

These medals fall into that category for me. I am adrift without my guru to ask these questions from now on.

[Stogieman]

RAO Medal is not "entry level"... the order was almost exclusively officer and fourth class was entry. The medal is kind of an "afterthought" for NCO's, etc. not many awards, mind you... I can count on one hand the number of these I've ever seen in mounted groups and only one photo of one being worn. Pretty scarce!

[Bob Hunter]

Soooooooo, whatcher guess, Rick? Officer or NCO. This is the bottom of RAO foodchain, is it not? That's what I mean by entry level.

[Stogieman]

I have always felt this bar was an NCO bar. What type or branch? I don't think we'll ever figure that out.

[medalnet]

I may have to translate this article on my web page into English over the upcoming holidays:

http://www.medalnet.net/Red_Eagle_Order_Medal.htm

The Red Eagle medal had no clear rules of how to be awarded. When renewed/reissued on March 10, 1871, 400 examples were ordered through the state chancellery.

Initial awards were made to the guards of the grand head quarters in Berlin. Those were worn on the Hohenzollern ribbon. Wilhelm I. decreed in 1873 that the Red Eagle medals were only to be awarded to those military persons that never participated in a war. Those awards had to be made to enlisted and NCO ranks and only on the orange white ribbon. It was further OK to award the medal to court servants.

Some medals were awarded in 1910 to Prussian citizens, but were disliked by the emperor. Medals were never again awarded for this purpose.

Looking even further back to the initial medal with the FW IV on the reverse it seems to me that this medal was given out as a personal distinction of the emperor, mostly to officials/military personnel serving at court events. But this is just my opinion. Documents have not been seen yet, which underlines the rather personal character of this award.

Edited December 21, 2005 by medalnet

[Bob Hunter]

Andreas, based on your article above it would appear that this would have been a pre-war award to an enlisted man or NCO and seems to be consistent with Rick's observation.

[Guest Rick Research]

The only "pool" of otherwise invisible non-commissioned personnel we have to go by is the Deck Officer Corps of the navy. In 1914, as holders of the SINGLE medals of the Red Eagle and Crown Orders ( a number had both these medals, and many had one or both but with the "usual" long service awards for non-officer personnel, grades of the General Decoration--cross and medal)

REOM by year of entering service (just an indicator of how long they had served by 1914)

1894--1

1895--2

1896--4

1897--3

1898--8

1899--7

1899--7

1900--3

1901--12

1902--5

1903--0

1904--1

1905--1

COM by years

1895--1

1896--2

1897--0

1898--2

1899--3

1900--1

1901--6

1902--6

1903--1

1904--1

1905--3

The navy of course was but a tiny fraction of the army's size, and we have NO way to judge the vast civil service's awards. But these lone medals are lost in a sea of the circled-A glyph for the General Decoration, awarded routinely at around 18 years of service, though there were always oddball awards-- Officer Candidate Karl D?nitz got a General Decoration Medal in silver before being commissioned, for instance.

The holder of this 4 medal bar joined the German military after March 1897 (no Centenary Medal for being on active duty 22.3.97), and did not have enough years service with WW1 double war time and any pre-war naval service outside German home waters, to have gotten a 1920 XXV. So he most likely joined around 1903 (could be as many as 3 years later if naval service with a lot of overseas cruising before the war), but no later than 1912 (1911 for the army).

If we guess that Red Eagle Order Medals were given at a more senior rank than Crown Order Medals, chances are this wearer enlisted closer to 1903 than 1911. So he might have had 10 years or so of service before the war, and chances are was about 30 in 1914.

As the Favored Service of Wilhelm II, I'd be willing to bet you that this is a NAVAL bar-- whether of a Petty or a Deck Officer, there's no way to tell. But if these medals for both Orders were awarded in proportion to the ones shown above in the ARMY, we would see them on medal bars quite frequently-- and we do not.

[medalnet]

Absolutly correct. I totally agree with Rick.

Yet, one question: Does anybody have a copy of a Prussian "Ordensliste"? I would be courious to know if those medals were actaully listed in there?

[Wild Card]

Gentlemen,

Following is what I guess would be a bar to the Brunswick horseholder. There are two things about this bar to which I would like to direct your attention.

Most obvious is the presence of the medal to both the Red Eagle and (Prussian) Crown Orders. Second is the Russian medal (third from right); or more importantly, its ribbon. I have seen many discussions on ribbon bars with this ribbon, where it is automatically assumed that the ribbon goes to a Lippe decoration; which, while possible, even most likely, is not as you can see here, a given.

Best wishes,

Wild Card

Edited December 23, 2005 by Wild Card

[Wild Card]

Bar to the Brunswick horseholder.

[Bob Hunter]

Fascinating bar and an interesting observation. Thanks for pointing that out.

[Stogieman]

Beautiful bar WildCard! I'm trying very hard to think of any other bar with both medals that I have seen and I just keep coming up blank. Very nice indeed!

[Guest Rick Research]

AND a perfect illustration of why it is not always possible to identify ribbon bars---

looking at that as JUST ribbons, and figuring on placement, most of us-- me, certainly-- would have thought 1897 Centenary Medal preceding foreign awards... and not a Baden Merit Medal taking up the last of the German spots.

Between the similarity of some ribbons ("this is close enough, no one will notice..."), mismounting, and so on, when faced with Things On The End or Single Color Ribbons, ONLY a medal bar like this will do. A ribbon bar of that would be impossible to guess the actual awards!

[Stogieman]

Ask me sometime what happens to the (truly) Evil Twin? when I show him big ribbon bars with solid, foreign ribbons on the end..... heh, heh, heh.

[Djedj]

Hello gentlemen,

I'm reviving this thread for the sake of the medal to the Red Eagle Order.

I do have a photo showing a recipient ; and would like to get your feel about it :

This gentleman is a Senior NCO called Erich Prieger (likely Vize-Wachtmeister, but maybe wachtmeister - can't make up my mind about the cuff lace- note the Officer's sword and sword-knot) in Husarenregiment nr.9.

It was taken in the 1870s (backplate dedicated in either 1874 or 1879)

Here's something of a closeup on the chest :

And the questions :

- Is that the Medal of the Red Eagle Order all right ?

- What is the other Medal ?

The backplate is laden with information, some of which might help ; but I must admit my problem with decyphering handwritten German

Thanks for your help !

Jerome

[Ulsterman]

Doesn't that say May 1899? One cockade?

I have several pictures of these being worn-all to NCOs-presumably the good ones of a regiment. I also have a couple of Officer Stellvetreters in 14-18.