Two ribbon bars

[Noor]

Hello all,

I posted those two ribbon bars below up on France subforum but haven't found out much.

The combination looks France but everything else indicates to me States... can you guys here advise please?

Here is the text, what I posted up on France subforum:

Hi all,

Here is my two ribbon bars and as far I know they are from France WW1 era.

But what I do "not like" is the reverses, so I would like to confirm with you guys that this type of pin system and the clutch back was in use with that era bars? I have around 4-6 this period France bars and non of them I have seen something similar!

Combinations - is it common enagh or is it fine?:

1. Legion of Honour/WW1 War Medal

2. Legion of Honour/Allied Victory Medal/WW1 War Medal

is it correct order of those award regarding reglementations?

To me, two place bar pin system looks like 100% same as a pre WW2 US bars had and also clutch back system is something what became to use from the States. Was there maybe any US personel attached to the France units and they received only those awards combinations above? They arrived to me some months ago with the other US bars as well. One of the bars looks like missing second row and was clutch back as well but I do not think that the US Navy guy had this three place combinations!?!?!

All the best,

Noor aka Timo

[scottplen]

Hello all,

I posted those two ribbon bars below up on France subforum but haven't found out much.

The combination looks France but everything else indicates to me States... can you guys here advise please?

Here is the text, what I posted up on France subforum:

Hi all,

Here is my two ribbon bars and as far I know they are from France WW1 era.

But what I do "not like" is the reverses, so I would like to confirm with you guys that this type of pin system and the clutch back was in use with that era bars? I have around 4-6 this period France bars and non of them I have seen something similar!

Combinations - is it common enagh or is it fine?:

1. Legion of Honour/WW1 War Medal

2. Legion of Honour/Allied Victory Medal/WW1 War Medal

is it correct order of those award regarding reglementations?

To me, two place bar pin system looks like 100% same as a pre WW2 US bars had and also clutch back system is something what became to use from the States. Was there maybe any US personel attached to the France units and they received only those awards combinations above? They arrived to me some months ago with the other US bars as well. One of the bars looks like missing second row and was clutch back as well but I do not think that the US Navy guy had this three place combinations!?!?!

All the best,

Noor aka Timo

Two ribbon Us Navy /Marine Good conduct ,2nd nicaragan Campaign ?? Is 2nd ribbon faded it could be this?

[Noor]

Thats great point scottplen

But I think that the second ribbon is pretty much on his own color. Also isn't the Navy GCM a little pit more darker color? I do not have a example here but can it be Marine GCM ribbon????

[Ulsterman]

I admit I know -zero- about WW1 era french ribbon bars, but those look US style to me. Many Doughboys went home with the French medal on their chests and got the WW1 victory rosette later. Wartime decorations for gallantry seem to have been worn ahead of all other medals, in spite of country of origin. The US military was a little more lax and sparse in these matters.

The idea of ribbon bling was to impress girls and cadge free drinks when you got home. 99% of Americans were not and had no intention of being professional soldiers, so they were a little more relaxed.

[Lukasz Gaszewski]

The second ribbon in the first bar is the ribbon of the French Croix du Combattant.

[Noor]

Thank you Lukasz! Yes, it is look like Croix du combattant and I do not have any problem with this bar to say that its looks like bar from France if I don't look reverse..... just as I said, clutch back pins and two place bar reverse indicates something else to me in construction side. Hopefully some France collectors can show some similar bars, if I am wrong.

In this case my question remains, was there US soldiers who received ONLY foreign awards and nothing from the States at all?

Also, those two bars I got with the other 4-5 early period US bars. Only two of them was clutch back bars.... I do not want to believe it, but is there, in this case, any chance that those two bars below is the set? Because first one missing second row and only one what can be the same with the reverse type is the one what looks France!?!?!

So, lets say, first one is highest Navy awards what is possible to obtain and second ribbon bar is 2nd Nicaraguan campaign/Victory Medal/Croix du Combattant??? Can it make sence for a one brave navy sebior officer, during early period WW2??????

[army historian]

Noor, If a U.S. soldier, sailor or airman only received foreign awards, he would not be able to wear them on uniform. He must have at least one US ribbon or medal. This is from the regulations. Cheers Captain Albert

[Noor]

Thank you!

But in this case can they be second rows or maybe France army used during the WW1 US style bars? But in this case why clutch back bar, what was established during WW2.

Those bars are confusing! I got them all together, with the other early States bars as a lot, so again, makes it harder to indicate them as a European bars!

[Histaria]

These bars are likely U.S. and very possibly a set. Writing off some slight color variations as age, fading, and possibly inaccurate foreign manufacture, I suggest these are as follows:

Row 1 (as shown):

- Navy Cross

- Navy Distinguished Service Medal. Established in 1919 for service back to 1917. Of higher precedence than the Navy Cross until 1943 when the order was reversed

- Philippine Campaign. For service in 1908

Row 2 (shown backwards):

- Navy Good Conduct Medal. Only for enlisted men.

- WWI Victory

- French Croix

A possible scenario:

First, this would be for a very highly decorated individual, the Navy Cross and DSM being just below the Medal of Honor. The DSM--especially in the WWI-WWII era-- was only given to Navy flag officers. This fellow would have had to have started out as an enlisted man and earned a Good Conduct Medal (no stars on the ribbon, so he had at least 4 years, but less than 8, as an enlisted sailor). He then got a commission. He might have received the Navy Cross in the Philippines, which got him a shot at a commission. Or, the Navy Cross was earned in W.W.I., or even W.W.II. Because the Navy Cross is displayed before the DSM, it would seem that the bar dates to at least 1943. If the fellow was, say, 20 years old when he was in the Philippines, he would have been in his mid-fifties in '43. Quite possibly a senior officer by the end of the war and open to getting the DSM.

Unlike most U.S. ribbon bars, this might be sufficiently unique to research. It was mentioned that there were other ribbons obtained at the same time. It might be worthwhile to show them as well in case some of them also belong with those already pictured. And of course, as is always the case, this could easily be someone's fantasy bar, put together to impress the folks at home.

Edited March 17, 2010 by Histaria

[Noor]

Thank you very much Histaria!

So, more then one expert here can confirm that those two bars are US ones! This part is closed I quess - US they are....

Maybe lets move now on with this lot what I obtained and what consist those bars, including Navy senior officer first row - can the other clutch back bar be the second row?

Thank you to Histaria again for information and trying to "reunite the set"...

As I said, there was only one matching clutch back row in the lot and I posted them above already together - three place bar with Navy Good Conduct (?????? - I can't find at the moment any reference on internet regarding that ribbon as a GCM), WW1 Victory, French croix.

But here is rest of the bars what I got together:

[Noor]

Here is one my other "weird" or maybe even "ID possible" ribbon bar. This time bar is missing upper row I quess.

- China Relief 1901

- British Military Order of Bath

- French legion of honor - commander

Thank you to the British medal forum moderator Raldal, I had been advised that there was only few American Officers who were awarded the Order of the Bath (pre WW1)

GCB - 1

KCB - 5

CB - 44

Edited March 17, 2010 by Noor

[Tim B]

Hi Noor,

How about this? The first ribbons you posted are correct as shown and the foreign award of the French Commemorative is in last position, per regulations.

Now, the bar with the "clutch back" could be a case where the member stayed in long enough to upgrade to this type of attachment, or simply put them on a clutch back for display possibly. They are sewn to the back, so they were made up this way.

Tim

[Tim B]

I tend to agree that over the years, colors tend to fade and many ribbons look similar to others when it comes to colors.

Also, the US military (Navy at least) allows for members to wear the "top-3" awards and not have to wear everything. I knew several members (officer and enlisted) that chose not to wear more than the top (highest) three ribbons, as it reduced the wear and costs to maintain a full ribbon bar. Can become an ongoing expense when you're entitled to wear 4-5-6 rows of ribbons and if stationed onboard ships, wash khaki can be worn with/without ribbons, so again, easier to maintain.

On the bar with the Navy Cross and Distingushed Service Medal; this could be the case of wearing only the top-3, though its a hell of a jump to go from those two high decorations, straight down to a campaign medal but, I do not really think the other bar would go together as the Good Conduct Medal (service medal) would rate higher in precendence than any (campaign medal) and would be placed higher on the bar, again per regulations.

On a side note; The only Navy enlisted member that I know that ever earned the Distingushed Service Medal, was Navy's Gunner's Mate Master Chief John Black, who was the 1st Master Chief Petty Officer of the Navy. So again, these two bars do not go together. It's possible it belonged to someone of higher rank that participated only in the Philippine Campaign?? Might be researchable.

Tim

Edited March 18, 2010 by Tim B

[Histaria]

From the photo in post #10:

Bar 2:

- W.W. I Victory Medal

- U.S. Navy Haitian Campaign (1919-1920)

- Not U.S. (at least nothing official)

- Not U.S. (ditto)

Bar 5:

- U.S. Navy Haitian Campaign (colors are more accurate on this example)

- U.S. Navy Second Nicaraguan Campaign (1926-33)

[Noor]

From the photo in post #10:

Bar 2:

- W.W. I Victory Medal

- U.S. Navy Haitian Campaign (1919-1920)

- Not U.S. (at least nothing official)

- Not U.S. (ditto)

Bar 5:

- U.S. Navy Haitian Campaign (colors are more accurate on this example)

- U.S. Navy Second Nicaraguan Campaign (1926-33)

Bar 2:

- W.W. I Victory Medal

- U.S. Navy Haitian Campaign (1919-1920)

- Foreign Order (Italian St. Maurice and Lazarus?)

- Foreign Order (French Legion of Honor?)

Thank you guys all of your replays!

Can someone advise regarding some specific forum or US researcher contact, who have right reference materials and who maybe can help to proceed to help put "lost" names behind the Navy bar and if possible, as well this lower row China Relief 1901 bar..... IF it is possible of course.

Meantime, is there any Navy lists, etc online available, what I can start going throw myself?

All the best,

Timo

[Tim B]

Well, I responded and it didn't go through... I'll try again.

[Tim B]

Timo,

I still think you have a mix-match of ribbons here and not necessarily to the same individual. In regards to the ribbon bar (2nd from top) in post #10; how about this?

The first ribbon is more pinkish, as we see on the Belgian Order of Leopold I and that might make more sense with the second green ribbon being the unofficial (Belgian) Honor Medal that was awarded at the end of WWI, and the Victory Medal would be the Belgian WWI Victory Medal.

That leaves the third dark blue ribbon with the two red stripes. It resembles the US Haitian Campaign Medal, but the center stripes are a bit narrower and the lenght of the ribbon is shorter than normal US size ribbons; so... it's actually a British 1911 Coronation Medal

Tim

Edited March 30, 2010 by Tim B

[Tim B]

So, now we have to ask why a British Coronation Medal on this bar, IF the other awards are in fact Belgian?

Here's a Wikipedia excerpt:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_George_V_Coronation_Medal

Maybe the guy had a part in the services?

Tim

[Tim B]

The other possibility on the green ribbon, though I think a long-shot due to the date of the award, would be the British Volunteer Force Long Service Medal (Colonies), Edward VII issue, 1901-1908. This one also had a green ribbon, but I think a shade darker IMO.

The medal was instituted in 1894 to be awarded for 20 years’ service in the Volunteer Force, precursor of the Territorial Army. In 1901, the image of Queen Victoria was replaced with that of King Edward VII upon his accession. The Volunteer Force was disbanded in 1908 and the medal was awarded at that time to those who had served 16 years and did not transfer to the new force. The medal was then superseded by Territorial Force Efficiency Medal.

I still think the pinkish ribbon is to a Order of Leopold I.

Hope that helps a bit Timo!

Tim

[Noor]

Hi Tim,

Thank you very much your replays! Help much appriciated!

Yes, I think you made your point and I can consider this bar from Belgium. Still, in this case British cornation ribbon do not make any sence.

I have to investigate colours of that bar closer over the weekend.

Anyway, why I was in first place with Rick with that - because those bars all came to my collection from States from one person. Just starnge how then one Belgium bar was there as well but meantime.... those kind a things happens.

I will post it up to Belgium subforum and to the British forum as well, in order to find out does Belgium service mens got cornation medal from UK, etc.

Thank you again and talk you soon,

Timo

[Tim B]

Timo,

Hard to say; might have been someone that just collected these bars over the years, or swapped something for them from other foreign service personnel. Common occurance between military guys.

I meant to add yesterday, that the type colors on that WW1 Victory Medal ribbon, really don't match the normal versions issued to Americans but, it does match some of those that I have seen over the years on Belgian, French, and other European countries, so that may be another pointer this is not US.

As far as the bar with the Navy Cross/Navy Distingushed Service Medal/Philippine Campaign Medal; You can try this link and try to narrow it down by who was awarded the Navy Cross but... I don't think it was necessarily for this campaign as the NC chart shows. Perhaps one of those in the "timeframe" but, I would opt for those after the Philippine Campaign or you would think the ribbon bar would include ribbons for the Haitian or Dominican Campaigns and it doesn't. Might be just a made-up bar??

http://www.homeofheroes.com/navycross/index.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philippine_Campaign_Medal

Good luck!

Tim

Edited March 31, 2010 by Tim B

[Tim B]

Cleaning out old PIC's and meant to post this earlier but couldn't find the thread again.

Could be another possibility.

Tim

[Noor]

Thanks Tim!

That looks like possibility!

Regards,

Timo