WW1 Bavarian officers tunic...

[Chris Boonzaier]

I have just been offered one with chest pockets (a bit like the WW2 jackets).

This seems to be unusual... most photos have them without pockets... Is this a certain pattern of jacket or just a private one ordered by the officer?

best

Chris

[Guest Rick Research]

Very common fashion statement, no problem. By the end of the war, even lucky enlisted men started wearing those. They were unofficial then so all sorts of styles. has it got the M1916 Bavarian state collar tape edging?

Some follow:

Bavarian Feldwebel/Offizierstellvertreter without state tape border:

[attachmentid=19857]

Bavarian Unteroffizier with state tape border under his NCO Tresse:

[attachmentid=19858]

and a couple of staff groups just to show varieties and how many in a given group might have gone for the style:

[attachmentid=19859]

aside from the foolishness of NOT having enough pockets, the fashion probably came from British officers' tunics

[attachmentid=19860]

I've no doubt got many more in the bvast archive if yours doesn't match any of these.

(I don't suppose it's a NAMED tunic?...)

[Les]

I have just been offered one with chest pockets (a bit like the WW2 jackets).

This seems to be unusual... most photos have them without pockets... Is this a certain pattern of jacket or just a private one ordered by the officer?

best

Chris

Chris, there is an officer style pattern that was "borrowed" by officers who served with Ausrian troops in the east. For example, there are photos of Ludendorf and Hindenburg (and many other officers) wearing a modified version of the m15/16 "Bluse" with upper chest pockets....something the enlisted model didn't have. The standard m15/16 for officers and enlisted alike, didn't have the chest pockets although officers did have the option of having them as part of the uniform.

In answer to your question, yes it is a common pattern that appears during the latter part of the war, and is also one that could be ordered by an officer who liked that particular style.

Les

[Chip]

Rick,

Your first picture has me a bit puzzled. This Unteroffizier appears to have attributes of both rank's insignia, as you mention in your caption. This is not Kosher and I have never seen it before. What are your thoughts as to why he is wearing this combination of insignia?

Chip

[Guest Rick Research]

Chip: Since Offizierstellvertreter was a temporary wartime rank, most usually held by Vize- -feldwebel/-wachtmeister ranks, as an etatsm?ssiger Feldwebel, this was the only way the warrant officer in first illustration above COULD indicate that his "permanent" rank was higher than those of his fellows holding the "same" acting war's duration rank. This is the only time I've ever seen the insignia worn this way either-- unfortunately he didn't write anything identifying himself on the back.

Chris:

What MODEL of tunic are your considering? M1910 with buttons down front and on cuffs, or a M1915 with covered front like the two Bavarians I've shown above?

Here is the state border, sometimes just found down the front edge of a collar:

enlisted cloth woven on top, and officer silver metallic on bottom, first fronts and then backs. It never came close to universal issue, but since it dressed up any tunic (particularly the sack-like M1915s) anybody who could get some seems to have tried!

[attachmentid=19899]

[attachmentid=19900]

[Chip]

Speaking of the Bavarian Auszeichnungsborte, there is an excellent article on the subject (written by Jurgen Kraus) concerning how this insignia was developed and the process that the Kriegsministerium went through. Included are some very interesting ideas that they ended up not using. It appeared in a 1975 edition of "Zeitschrift f?r Heereskunde". Another relevent article from the July/October 1991 issue of the same publication is entitled, "Feldwebelleutnants, Offizierstellvertreter und vergleichbare Dienstgrade im 1.Weltkrieg 1914-1918" written by my friend, H.R.von Stein.

I have two uniform items with this Borte. One is a 1916 dated Bluse with the full length braid and the other is a 1917 overcoat with the braid on the front edge of the collar. By the end of the war the braid was being dropped altogether, primarily due to cost and material shortages. Most often it is seen on private purchase walking-out-dress service tunics and Friedensuniformen. I have original lengths of both the officer's and enlisted braid and there were some slight variations, which may be due to the differences between government issue and custom made materials. For instance, I have seen enlisted braid both with blue/white lozenges and blue/gray lozenges.

Chip

[dwmosher]

...And then this tunic doesn't to "fit" anywhere! This post April 1916 "hybrid" field service tunic for an officer in the Bavarian ILR shows an intersting mix of pre- and post -1916 regulations with M-1910 litzen and lion buttons, post-1916 Kennzeichenborte on collar AND cuffs, and post-1916 swedish cuffs and white-piped boards.

Regards

Dave

[Chip]

Dave,

I've seen your tunic before and it is one of the most odd hybrids that I have ever seen. The Bavarian braid on the cuff is unique. All the same, it is a very outstanding example and is especially colorful.

Chip

[dwmosher]

Thanks Chip. With your interest in insignia, I thought the tunic might interest you again.

Dave

[Chris Boonzaier]

A question...

If these pockets have been added at some stage, does it effect the price? The jacket may be period altered... but it is altered....

[Chip]

Chris,

I would say that in general, enlisted custom made tunics are not as desirable as issue ones. Maybe that is just my preference. Otherwise, I think that much of the value lies in the originality of the tunic. Were the pockets added during the period, is the material an exact or near match to the rest of the tunic, is the tunic a converted issue piece or a private purchase example? Period alterations were common for enlisted tunics, especially for walking-out-dress tunics and those of troops in the rear areas. There are lots of questions, but in the end, I am sure that your sense for what you like and your experience as to whether others would like to own this tunic, will tell you if it is a "buy" or not. Good luck.

Chip

Edited January 22, 2006 by Chip

[Guest simon500]

Sorry to gatecrash your forum with a semi-irrelevant question but is there any particular way that the lions on Bavarian Greatcoat buttons are supposed to face. I have a greatcoat and the lions heads are looking to the right hand side of the button. But on most I've seen they look to the left hand side of the button.

Any Ideas?

Cheers,

Simon Cooper

[Daniel Murphy]

The standard button that is used to button the front flap should be facing to the left. The only time a right facing button is used, is when there are button applied side by side. When this is done the lions on the buttons should face each other. As shown here.

Dan Murphy

[Guest simon500]

Cheers,

So any ideas why on the enlisted man's greatcoat I've got they face to the right? It's Late war production (BAII 1917 dated). Do you think they were indifferent by then?

Simon

[Chip]

Simon,

A later war Bavarian overcoat should not have any lion buttons on it. In 1916, when the new Einheitsmantel was adopted, the buttons were changed to a universal crown button, which was worn on the overcoats of all contingents. Your lion buttons would not be the original ones and most likely were added later, either during the period or more recently. My 1917 dated example has no lion buttons as per regulations.

Regards,

Chip

[Major]

Very common fashion statement, no problem. By the end of the war, even lucky enlisted men started wearing those. They were unofficial then so all sorts of styles. has it got the M1916 Bavarian state collar tape edging?

Some follow:

Bavarian Feldwebel/Offizierstellvertreter without state tape border: I think this is a Bavarian Vize-Feldwebel because of the three chevrons (a Feldwebel wore four). He was no Offizierstellvertreter, because he had no silver braids around the epaulette, the sign for this rank

[attachmentid=19857]

Bavarian Unteroffizier with state tape border under his NCO Tresse:

[attachmentid=19858]

and a couple of staff groups just to show varieties and how many in a given group might have gone for the style:

[attachmentid=19859]

aside from the foolishness of NOT having enough pockets, the fashion probably came from British officers' tunics

[attachmentid=19860]

I've no doubt got many more in the bvast archive if yours doesn't match any of these.

(I don't suppose it's a NAMED tunic?...)

[ccj]

did you ever get a bavarian tunic?

[Chris Boonzaier]

did you ever get a bavarian tunic?

Hi,

Still waiting.... ;-)