Turkey Order of Medjidie

[avsaribar]

Hello Dean ,

Yes it is a beatiful 5th Class Crimean Type Medjidie . But it does not belong to that WW1 Bar .

Avsar

[Signalcorps45]

Avsar

Could you please give me some detail on why the 5th class does not belong on this bar?

Dean

[lambert]

My guess is that the size is at the center of the medal. The center is much larger orders in the Crimean War.

I'm right?

Lambert

still learning :)

[avsaribar]

Dear Dean ,

Crimean war started in October 1853 and finished in Feb 1856 . Crimean Type Medjidie orders made and awarded during Crimean era .

But your bar is from WW1 . There for it doesnt have a place in that bar . There are some examples of German Bars with Medjidie and Osmanie orders from WW1 period but thoose Medjidies are not Crimean Type .

And Dear Lambert,

Yes you are right if you compare with the Ottoman Made ones , Crimean types have bigger center . Also Ottoman Mint Made ones are Diamond Cut ( Silver Parts ) but Crimean type Medjidie's silver parts are different , how can i explain , let me say they are like herringbone style .. ( ? ) . For all Medjidie orders , only the 5th class has Silver Center Tughra .

Cheers ,

Avsar

[drclaw]

Hello Avsar,

Thanks for that very interesting infromation about Diamond Cutting. I did notice that my Crimean Era Medjidie to have more 'rounded' detailing of the silver parts whereas those with the Ottoman Mint mark are sharp enough to cut through a cloth if you were cleaning it.

The size of my Ottoman Mint 5th Class badge is also considerably larger than the 2nd Class neck badge, 3rd Class neck badge and 4th Class breast badge.

Cheers, Gavin

[Signalcorps45]

Avsar,

I am sorry for the late reply, I have been out of town. Thank you very much for the information. So this bar should have a WWI Medjidie order and not a Crimean order?

Dean

[saschaw]

Or maybe something else, like Liyakat medal?

[Signalcorps45]

I am trying to figure out what should really be on that bar. Any help would be appreciated.

Dean

[avsaribar]

Dear Dean ,

Sorry for my late reply , i was in London , just turned back to Istanbul .

About your bar ;

Honestly, first i was thinking that you need a Jubilee Medal (1905) or a Prince R. Luitpold medal there but , ! ! ! !!!!

after i concentrate to your cute bar a little more , i think you need a later period Medjidie Order there.

Hope it helps ,

Avsar IBAR

Edited August 28, 2011 by avsaribar

[Signalcorps45]

Avsar IBAR,

There was no rush on your reply. Yes, your advice does help me, I thought I needed a later Medjidie medal, but wanted to make sure. Would you be available to help me verify any Medjidie medal that I find? I have very little knowledge of this order.

Dean

[avsaribar]

Hello Dean ,

I will do my best to help you regarding the Ottoman Orders .

Best Wishes ,

Avsar

[Westdiep911]

Dear Avsar,

Could you help me with this Medjidie order?

The center is gilded silver so I presume it is a 4th class breast star. The cartouche on the reverse is from Darphane-i-Amire, however the crescent and star not red enameled and looks like one from the Osmanie order.

The original star was awarded to a Belgian dental surgeon in 1889 (date of the authorisation document. On this Belgian document is the 5th class mentioned). Administrational error?

Thanks a lot!

[avsaribar]

Dear Westdiep ,

Unfortunately i can nit see the pictures.

Can you post them here again ?

Best ,

Avsar

[Westdiep911]

Hello Avsar,

They are visible, I post them on your email account.

Regards, Jens.

[avsaribar]

Dear Jens ,

Yes , i checked them , it looks like a 4th Class Medjidie . The cresent and the star did not belong to him , they are from a 4th Class Order of Osmanie . ( Not Medjidie ) .

Small Tip : On the Osmanie Orders , Cresent and The Star faces - looks to the up without enamel . On the Medjidie Orders they look to the right with red enamel on them ...

Best wishes for the New Year ,

Avsar Ibar

[Westdiep911]

Hello Avsar,

Thank you for the advice. I presumed that the star was an amalgam of the two orders. However I know the recipient and I am sure that he received the star in this configuration. There are more amalgams, ref. Liverpool Medals:

I wish you also all the best for 2012, Jens.

[avsaribar]

Dear Jens ,

There is no combination " As you call AMALGAM " of Medjidie orders with Osmanie orders . All of those examples exist the reason is during the years , their own cresent & star lost because of an external factor or whatever ... And recipient or the owner during the mentioned time changed it's up with a similar one as he found an Osmanie Order's one...

This order can not be awarded in this position . There is no such example in literature exist in this condition . The one in Liverpool medals is also a later intervation to compensate the lost , even i can see that it's neck ribbon is new ...

Best ,

Avsar IBAR

[drclaw]

Dear Avsar and Dean,

Thanks for a very interesting and helpful discussion! The crescent and star suspension amalgam is not something I'd noted before. But I'd be sure to watch out for it in the future. Just goes to show that you never stop learning.

Happy New Year to all for 2012!

Gavin

[Westdiep911]

I think that the exceptions prove the rule!

By the way: the same dental surgeon became the order of the Lion & Sun. There are no pin holes on both ribbons.

Happy 2012, Jens.

[Ovan Yagjian]

Does anyone know if there are official Ottoman records that detail the names, dates, and citations of the Order of Medjidiye awards?

 

My fourth great grandfather, Ovan “Yağcıoğlu” Yagjian, was awarded the Order of Medjidiye by the Sultan for distinguished service during the Crimean War. He was a civilian Armenian merchant who provisioned the 4^th Ottoman Army under siege on the Russian front. Our family has an oral account of his action, however, we’d love to find any written account.

 

I’ve had some Turkish history PhD students search the Turkish National Archives for Order of Medjidiye records, with no results.

 

Any assistance or advice will be greatly appreciated.

 

- Marc Yagjian – Austin, TX, USA   yagjian@aol.com

[demir]

Hello Ovan,

You have to apply to the Ottoman Archives in Istanbul. https://en.devletarsivleri.gov.tr/

There are several books containing the names of the recipients at the archives. The problem is you have to know the old Turkish script. Ask your friends to check the books in the archives again.

Best wishes

Demir

 

[Ovan Yagjian]

Hello Demir,

 

Thank you for your helpful response.

 

Can you be more specific about the names of the books containing the names of the Medjidiye Order recipients or what my researchers should ask the Ottoman Archives staff to find these books?

 

Do you know anyone I can hire to conduct research into the books at the archives you refer to?

 

My researchers do read old Turkish script and have found several documents concerning my subject, Ovan Yağcıoğlu.  However, they say they don’t know where to look next.

 

Much appreciation,

Marc

[demir]

Hi, 

There are several medal books and one has to check each one of them. Your people can go the Archives and can ask the help of one of the people working there. I have done it myself for the Turkish War Medal recipients but I couldn't find most of them because they were given during the last years of the Ottomans and medals given by the Germans. As far as I know other medal and order books were kept well if the medals were not given during the lasy days.

Best wishes

Demir

[Ovan Yagjian]

Thank you Demir. This is helpful. I’ll pass this on to my researchers.

 

When were the “lazy days”?

I believe the award I’m looking for was given in Istanbul between the Crimean War and 1878.

 

Best,

Marc

[demir]

Torajiro Yamada, a Japanese businessman and sadau teacher who contributed to bilateral trade. He lived in Istanbul between the years 1892-1922.