Bavaria “What do you know about Bavarian MVO's”

[Wild Card]

Gentlemen,

Two weeks ago, we opened a new thread, “What do you know about Bavarian MVK's”, which, with now over

one hundred posts, has brought forth much new and informative material. I would now like to bring that

thread to the next, and obvious, level by introducing -

“What do you know about Bavarian MVO's”

I would also like to encourage the posting of minis because in this order we find some excellent examples

of the jeweler’s talents.

Lastly, I want to thank all who refrained from posting your MVO’s in the MVK thread. Now, here’s your chance -

Edited May 12, 2010 by Wild Card

[Komtur]

I would also like to encourage the posting of minis because in this order we find some excellent examples

of the jeweler’s talents.

Here you are!

Shown before (search for "Heim"), but we can see here, that it was possible, to wear two different classes of the BMVO with X together. Unfortunately I do not know much about this order and therefore can´t tell you the detailed regulations.

Kind regards, Komtur.

[Wild Card]

Switching from minis.

[Wild Card]

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[Wild Card]

Hallmarks

[Wild Card]

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[Wild Card]

For traveling.

Incidentally, the interior of the lid is marked to “Weiss & Co. / E. Quellhorst(?) Nachf

[Beau Newman]

Posted previously but, a pre-1905 Knight, 2nd Class. This was replaced by the more familiar silver cross with flames:

Now to find a ca. 1900 Russian St. Stanislaus to complete the group.

[Paul C]

I thought I would add my 2 cents on this and post a some what untypical Bayern medal bar with the MMO4XKR which was awarded to August Schmidt who went on to serve in the Reichheer and Wehrmacht Army, reaching the rank of GL and holder of the EKRKE.

[Wild Card]

Before this thread fades off to oblivion....

[Beau Newman]

Nice

I know that many of the 3rd Classes a gilded 4th Classes but, the gilding on this one really "pops". The cross is marked "950 J.L.", the swords are marked "J.L. 900" and the suspension ring is marked "900". I think Leser was a maker of the 3rd Class crosses. Is there anything else to look for when trying to dertermine if a piece is a gilded 4th Class?

Edited May 24, 2010 by Beau Newman

[Beau Newman]

The reverse:

[saschaw]

I think Leser was a maker of the 3rd Class crosses. Is there anything else to look for when trying to dertermine if a piece is a gilded 4th Class?

While Leser was a maker of 3rd classes I have to say I don't like yours. I know there are some things to look for, but don't what they are exactely... other might chime in, I hope.

I would expect gold medaillons, while these here are gilt - see the wider cross arm frame on reverse. A real gilt 3rd class should not have this, from what I've heard.

[militaria0815]

While Leser was a maker of 3rd classes I have to say I don't like yours. I know there are some things to look for, but don't what they are exactely... other might chime in, I hope.

I would expect gold medaillons, while these here are gilt - see the wider cross arm frame on reverse. A real gilt 3rd class should not have this, from what I've heard.

Silver gilt pieces NEVER have golden middle medaillons, they HAVE TO HAVE wider cross arms, they are ALWAYS hollow made.

The item showed in the pic is therefore clearly an upgraded 4th class.

[palencia]

A "punished" pre-war MVO 4th class (Jacob Leser)

[saschaw]

Silver gilt pieces NEVER have golden middle medaillons, they HAVE TO HAVE wider cross arms, they are ALWAYS hollow made.

The item showed in the pic is therefore clearly an upgraded 4th class.

That happens if one does not pay enough attention... thanks! I think I won't forget this anymore.

palencia, nice and interresting combination!

[Beau Newman]

All this does raise a question. The Bavarian MVO was probably the most widely awarded house order of the war with well over 20,000 in all classes. One would expect that at least on the order of a few thousand were awarded in 3rd Class. If that is the case, where are they? They are seen much less often than many awards that were awarded less liberally. Any ideas?

[Schießplatzmeister]

All this does raise a question. The Bavarian MVO was probably the most widely awarded house order of the war with well over 20,000 in all classes. One would expect that at least on the order of a few thousand were awarded in 3rd Class. If that is the case, where are they? They are seen much less often than many awards that were awarded less liberally. Any ideas?

Hello Beau:

There were approximately 24,000 or so MVO 4th with Swords awarded during the war. I believe that the total for the number of MVO 3rd with Swords was a bit less than 1,000 (I will have to look up the exact number later today), thus making this a rather scarce award.

For the Bavarian Officers (Lieutnants) the MVO 4th with Swords was the usual combat-zone service award. The higher classes were awarded according to rank with the 3rd Class with Swords pieces going to rather senior Officers as the Crown embellishment came next regarding award/rank hierarchy.

Best regards,

"SPM"

[militaria0815]

There were around 28.000 4th classes w X, about 750 3rd classes, plus: many 3rd classes were returned after the winner had died.

[Schießplatzmeister]

There were around 28.000 4th classes w X, about 750 3rd classes, plus: many 3rd classes were returned after the winner had died.

Thank you militaria0815!

For everyone that doesn't know, militaria0815 is an expert in this area and definately knows what he is talking about.

Best regards,

"SPM"

[Beau Newman]

There were around 28.000 4th classes w X, about 750 3rd classes, plus: many 3rd classes were returned after the winner had died.

That number is surprising. If the MVO followed the basic structure of other awards, the 3rd Class would have been a Major's level award. As generous as they were with the 4th Class, they seen to have been equally stingy with the 3rd.

Excellent info - Many thanks!

[avadski]

There were around 28.000 4th classes w X, about 750 3rd classes, plus: many 3rd classes were returned after the winner had died.

I wonder what happened to the cross when it was returned? Did they destroy it? Or was it disassembled and parts used again?

[militaria0815]

That number is surprising. If the MVO followed the basic structure of other awards, the 3rd Class would have been a Major's level award. As generous as they were with the 4th Class, they seen to have been equally stingy with the 3rd.

Excellent info - Many thanks!

Correct, mainly given to Majors and Lieutenat Cornels.

[militaria0815]

I wonder what happened to the cross when it was returned? Did they destroy it? Or was it disassembled and parts used again?

The jewellery firms did both, depending on the condition of the pieces, however, it was solid gold and was taken into account. One can follow this if one has a look into the history of the Military Max Joseph Order, some pieces were returned, reworced, awarded again and survived from the Napoleonic war into WW1.

Edited May 25, 2010 by militaria0815

[palencia]

A MVO fourth class with crown and swords (Weiss & Co), gilded to make a third class (at least the center is in real gold).

Weiss never did third class, only Leser and Hammerle

And reload the pic of previous post (MVO 4th class pre-war)

Edited May 25, 2010 by palencia