Hungary Hungarian Security

[Greg Collins]

Charles,

What cap insignia did the Border Guard use after the '56 revolution? Did they go to the police insignia (with crossed weapons below the star) or did they adopt the star over the tri-colour- the same as the armed forces?

Edited January 7, 2011 by Greg Collins

[hunyadi]

My M57 Border Gurad cap has a star over the tricolor - it does not look like it had anything else. The buttons are the real way to tell the difference. The buttons have the Kadar coat of arms on them while the Armed Forces adopted the rather "neutral" crossed rifles.

[Gordon Craig]

Greg,

It has taken a while to answer because like most questions that seem simple on the surface yours was not easy to respond to immediately. I knew that the BG had sometimes been under the Ministry of the Interior (MoI) and at other times under the Ministry of Defence (MoD). I looked through my archives to see what information that I find. I thought that I had done a research post on the BG but couldn't find one. I had done one on the Finance Guard and that is probably what I was thinking of. In lieu of an answer from my own files I emailed Tamas at the Military Museum in Budapest and his answer is below.

Regards,

Gordon

"The Border Guard belonged to the Ministry of Interior since 1950. Until then they were part of the Army, belonged to the MoD.

The question of the cap badges is quite interesting! Between 1950 and 1956 they wore the same cap badge as the Interior Security (ÁVH) troops, so the cap badge of the MOI units.

When after the revolution the new uniform was introduced for all hungarian armed forces (during 1957-58) the Border Guard retained the army-style uniform with the distinctive light-green branch colour. However their cap badges were changed to army cap badges, so they had the regular oval army cap badges with national colours and red star in the middle, such as was worn until 1989.

BUT! I've seen photos from 1957-58 where Border Guard troops were still attached with the MOI cap badge (retained by the Police, Prison Guard and Worker's militia after 1956) - so it seems in 1958 (maybe in 1959?) it was not really decided what kind od cap badge the BG will have. Anyway, their "standard" cap badge in the Kádár-era was the army-style cap badge.

Hope this helps, best wishes!

Tamas

Edited January 11, 2011 by Gordon Craig

[Greg Collins]

Charles and Gordon,

Thanks for the information! It appears, from Tamas' answer, that there was a "slop" factor (fuzzy area) immediately after the '56 revolution before things became standardized. Understandable, as there were more pressing things than cap badges on peoples' minds at that time.

[hunyadi]

Slop was a common way to put the uniforms of October 1956 to 1958 there was alot going on politically and image is everything.... combined with the fact of having to produce a while national "identity" after December of 1956 is in a production and logistical sense - a nightmare. So slop certainly happened and it happened quite a bit.

Thought I would post this again - the lighting was good today so I got some shots of the colleciton and this one fits the thread.

Its my most fantastic find from a flea market in Budapest a Lt. Col of the Karhatalomn - early 1960's production as it does not have the double cut on the skirt.

[hunyadi]

Details

[Greg Collins]

Wow Charles! That is beautiful! :cheers:

[Ulsterman]

wow! The collecting Gods were kind to you CD!

That medal bar is awesome.

[hunyadi]

More - this is a police uniform of a Major. From the constriction its about a mid 1970's desing. You can see the difference in the gray / blue color of the uniform from the "camp brown" of the Armed Forces. This particular uniform has the loops to hold the ribbons sewn directly onto the uniform. This was not a common event...

[hunyadi]

This is also a Ministry of the Interior uniform of a prison guard the rank should be for Captain - but the stars were removed. The shadow remains of two stars on each board. When mentioning slop this is a pre 1956 uniform (prison guards had an open collar tunic) the shoulder board buttons still retain the Rakosi (pre October 1956) buttons while the buttons for the cuffs and the front closure are all Kadar era post 1956 buttons...

Edited January 14, 2011 by hunyadi

[hunyadi]

Another section of the Interior Ministry was of course the Border Gurads... this is the tunic of a SSGT - enlisted items of the M1957 were hard to find... notic how enlisted uniforms used silver colored buttons (aluminum) while offciers wore gold or brinze buttons...

Edited January 14, 2011 by hunyadi

[hunyadi]

Cant ever get tired of Karhatalom items... This is an early M1957 tunic of a Captain of the Karhatalom. This is seen as the front upper skirt of the tunic has two seams on each side. Around 1959/60 they went to a single piece. The tunic also has a single loop for a medal sewn directly onto the tunic.

[hunyadi]

This is my last Karhatalom uniform - sadly I almost completely destroyed it. I bought it thinking it was an early Air Force tunic that had been butchered by some collector (I was the one who was going to butcher it!!!) When I got it it had at the time what I thought was police shoulder boards (as they had the Ministry of Interior buttons) and an early Air Force "camp brown" tunic. What was interesting is that the buttons for the enclosure and cuffs are all Rakosi period! Talk about Slop!!! So I tried to find the right "Air Force" color shoulder board without luck =- then I found out that it was actually a Karhatalom tunic... :jumping:

[Gordon Craig]

Charles,

Thanks for your comparison of MoI tunics from the early post revolution period. It reminded me again of how often the collar insignia of these tunics strays from the regulation way of applying them. The mixture of pre and post revolution buttons is common on many of my tunics and great coats. Especially on the great coats where the visible buttons on the front would be changed to Kadar design but the small buttons used to close the flap at the bottom on the back would be left as Rakosi era buttons.

Regards,

Gordon

[hunyadi]

Thanks Gordon!

Here is a smattering of some Interior Minsitry Badges - not complete by any means

[Stogieman]

Post 105/106-Charles' uniform.

What is the medal in first place and is it really a higher precedence?

[Greg Collins]

It's the "Munkas-Paraszt Hatalomert Emlekerem" or "Restoration of the Workers and Peasants Rule Medal", 1957. Awarded for action in suppressing the counter-revolution in 1956. Yes, it is the highest award in that particular "rack".

Edited January 20, 2011 by Greg Collins

[GC*]

Good afternoon to everybody dear fellow collectors! I am new on this forum although I followed many conversations and had the chance to study amazing images posted in this forum.

I am a collector of hat badges, from the USSR, following CIS countries and former Warsaw Pact countries.

Here my hat badges collection with on the right a badge I received as present from a friend who believed it was a hat badge. I am quite sure it is not, even if I am no expert about badges. Somebody could help me in defying it?

(I can post better pictures of the hat badges, with measurment and details of the reverse).

Since the only badges I collect are the USSR Guard's ones I think that without offending my dear friend I will sell this.

Thank you very much.

GC

[GC*]

Here a better photo of the badge at issue!

[hunyadi]

Hello GC* this is a cap badge for the Factory Security Force. These were a sub section of the Interior Ministry that was charged with securing "vital" industrial sites. These have been seen with the prongs as well as pin and catch systems on the reverse. Little is known about these guards, as I have only had one uniform of theirs and sold it to a fellow collector.

[Gordon Craig]

hunyadi,

Thanks for answering this post. I was delinquent in responding to it.

Regards,

Gordon

[GC*]

Thank you very much OC and to you Gordon as well.

I was really convinced that the unknown badge at issue was not a cap badge..and I am actually really happy to discover it is!

Factory Security Force you said, very good; I'll add this description to the badge.

Thanks again!

GC

[Gordon Craig]

GC,

Here are some pictures of the cap badge on the Factory Guards visor cap. As Hunyadi said, we do not know very much about this organization but I would presume this is a senior officers cap because of the gold chin strap. The cap badge appears to be of a better quality than the one you posted which would be reasonable if I am correct about the rank of the person who would have worn this cap.

Regards,

Gordon

[Gordon Craig]

A side view of this same cap. The flash makes the cap look blue in this photo. It is not. The grey colour in the previous photo, at least on my screen, is very close to the actual colour of the cap.

Edited February 1, 2012 by Gordon Craig

[cimbineus]

Gents,

The original name of this organisation was: Industrial Facilities’ Guard. It was established in 1953 and supervised by the Ministry of Interior. This was an armed semi-military organisation which was responsible for guarding and safe-keeping industrial facilities, bridges, railway structures and other means on communication. At the very beginning they had no uniform and carried out their duties in civilian with obsolete weapons. That is why they were called “rifle on string” at that time. (In Hungarian: “madzagos puska”.)

From the ‘60s it was reorganised and during this process the grey-blue uniform was introduced with visor cap. This was the time when the cap badge appeared too.

The cap badge has its origins from this organisations “Kiváló” badge introduced immediately after the creation of the organisation in 1953. This was the “Excellent Industrial Guard” badge, a ministerial level award. For those who received this badge an extra monthly wage was granted. Here is this early type of the badge.

Later this badge went through certain modifications but it kept its original appearance during its whole existence. It existed until 1989 when this organisation was disbanded and its functions were taken over by security guard services organised on commercial basis.

Regards,

cimbineus