18 place ribbon bar possible?

[paddywhack]

so picked this up in another deal and while the bar does make seems is it plausible? from what i can make out the guy joined before 37 was in ww2 in the 8th army(Theres a missing 8 on the north African star)and a MID on the war medal and won a MM then he was in korea then was still in the service till after 62 and left in te 70s and at some point got imperial service medal! so what do you thing? a put together or a very very nice huge bar?also what are the last 3 ribbons as i cant for the life of me figure out what they are!(order of malta for the last ribbon!!)

any help would be great!! :beer:

[Tony Farrell]

I cannot see how anyone could squeeze that amount of military service in and do enough time in the Civil Service to receive an ISO. The last ribbon looks like a sun-faded St. John grade, though what precisely I have no idea. Without the ISO, 35 & 77 Jubilees, GSM62 and UNFICYP then this ensemble would be plausible, but their inclusion (for me) makes this an unrealistic throw together.

[paddywhack]

I cannot see how anyone could squeeze that amount of military service in and do enough time in the Civil Service to receive an ISO. The last ribbon looks like a sun-faded St. John grade, though what precisely I have no idea. Without the ISO, 35 & 77 Jubilees, GSM62 and UNFICYP then this ensemble would be plausible, but their inclusion (for me) makes this an unrealistic throw together.

hhmmmm yeah after going through the ribbons it does seem that with the ism it may be a put together!!!

[Daniel Krause]

Hi,

Does the 1st ribbon has to be the ISM?

A mere civil long service decoration in front of a MM and that other campaign stuff?

Might that be as well a DCM or so?

Greetings

Daniel

Edited July 1, 2010 by Daniel Krause

[paddywhack]

didnt i read here that the ism comes before the mm?

[Mervyn Mitton]

The ISM ranks at No. 29 in the order of precedence - and is therefore, ahead of the medals.  See my short post - ' A Mix of Minor Medals '  on page 2..

[paddywhack]

The ISM ranks at No. 29 in the order of precedence - and is therefore, ahead of the medals.  See my short post - ' A Mix of Minor Medals '  on page 2..

thanks meryn i was looking for that thread!thats where i read it!!! :beer:

[Mike Huxley]

The ISM ranks at No. 29 in the order of precedence - and is therefore, ahead of the medals.  See my short post - ' A Mix of Minor Medals '  on page 2..

Mervin, are you saying that on a Bar, the ISM should take prescidence and would be mounted before Gallantry awards and campaign medals?

Mike

[Mervyn Mitton]

The VC ranks at No.25 on the precedence list - then the GC ; the CGC; the DSO; Number 28 is the Imperial Service Order and Number 29 the Imperial Service medal.. No.32 is the DSC; 33, the MC; 34, the DFC.. The Military Medal is only at 55.

I have never understood , either, how this low award is ranked so highly - I suppose it it because it is linked to the ISO ?

[Odin Mk 3]

The correct order of wear is VC, GC, then Orders (inc ISO), Decorations (inc Order of St John), Gallantry Medals (inc MM), Campaign Medals, Polar Medals, Medals for valuable service (inc ISM), Jubilee and Coronation Medals, Long Service Medals (inc Service Medals of the Order of St John). So for that group to be correct the first medal would be the Imperial Service Order and the last would be the Service Medal of the Order of St John (=> the long service medal for St John Ambulance).

The one thing that makes the whole group look somewhat suspect is the inclusion of the Meritorious Service Medal (next to last medal) as this would have (until recently) taken something like 27 years in the Army to be awarded that. Then you would be normally looking at 25 years plus for an ISO, giving a total of 52 years. Also as the ISO was only awarded to senior grades (principle and above) then you are looking at staff who normally retire at 60 - so I can't see where the recipient would have got enough time in to earn an ISO. Also the ISO was about the same level as an OBE so if someone did a really good job (and was well short of the 25 years) then they would be put up for an OBE rather than an ISO.

The Jubilee Medals are also well spaced apart - 1935 and 1977 - 42 years. To achieve these two is not impossible but seems highly unlikely. I do have access to both medal rolls for the 1935 and 1977 Jubilees but don't have the inclination to do a comparison to see if one name appears in both lists.

[Odin Mk 3]

Also I have just remembered that the Order of St John (all grades) when worn as just a ribbon has a small maltese cross emblem on the ribbon. So the last medal would be the Service Medal for St John (without any extra long service bars).

[Odin Mk 3]

I've been digging further in my old magazines etc. The OMRS published an article by John Tamplin in their Miscellany of Honours No 10 (published 1996).

John had done a study of the ISO / ISM between 1902 and 1994 and produced a whole range of statistics including awards of other medals.

Apparently there were 31 recipients of the MC with either the ISO (14) or ISM (17). Also there were 608 recipients of the MM with the ISM but none with the MM and ISO. So that would indicate that the ribbon bar is not correct unless possibly the ISM has been placed in the order where the ISO should be worn.

I do have an ISM which has the man's name plus DCM and MM after his name. There is a man of that name in the London Gazettes with both post nominal letters suggesting the medal is correct. I found the man's DCM for WWI but couldn't find his MM so did he perhaps embelish his own awards with his colleagues and this was carried through when he was awarded his ISM?

[paddywhack]

I've been digging further in my old magazines etc. The OMRS published an article by John Tamplin in their Miscellany of Honours No 10 (published 1996).

John had done a study of the ISO / ISM between 1902 and 1994 and produced a whole range of statistics including awards of other medals.

Apparently there were 31 recipients of the MC with either the ISO (14) or ISM (17). Also there were 608 recipients of the MM with the ISM but none with the MM and ISO. So that would indicate that the ribbon bar is not correct unless possibly the ISM has been placed in the order where the ISO should be worn.

I do have an ISM which has the man's name plus DCM and MM after his name. There is a man of that name in the London Gazettes with both post nominal letters suggesting the medal is correct. I found the man's DCM for WWI but couldn't find his MM so did he perhaps embelish his own awards with his colleagues and this was carried through when he was awarded his ISM?

thanks for going to all that trouble!to me when i first got it and then did the maths it did seem there was just to much service on this bar!!!also there seems to have the most amount of devices on the ribbons a s well!i reckon someone did make this up but put to many ribbons on it!for me the ISM really kills it!!thanks again i do appreciate you going to all that trouble!! :beer:

[PKeating]

Not an ISM but perhaps a faded DCM riband?

PK

[Odin Mk 3]

No the ribbon is wider than the MM so it can't be a DCM. Both these ribbons are around 32mm wide, whereas the ISO / ISM is around 38mm wide.

Also if you look carefully, apart from the missing 8 numeral from the Africa Star and the missing MID from the War Medal, there are two small thread pick marks on the MM suggesting that also had a rosette on it denoting a second award. I don't believe there were that many MM and bars for WWII. I have more doubts each time I look at the ribbons.

Edited July 5, 2010 by Odin Mk 3

[paddywhack]

No the ribbon is wider than the MM so it can't be a DCM. Both these ribbons are around 32mm wide, whereas the ISO / ISM is around 38mm wide.

Also if you look carefully, apart from the missing 8 numeral from the Africa Star and the missing MID from the War Medal, there are two small thread pick marks on the MM suggesting that also had a rosette on it denoting a second award. I don't believe there were that many MM and bars for WWII. I have more doubts each time I look at the ribbons.

yup!from what i can see it has thee maximum number of devices and that is worrying with the amount of ribbons on this bar and the length of service!!well its going back any way!!

thanks for the info and help though!!(i know alot more about ribbon bars then when i started!!!!) :beer:

[censlenov]

The group appears to me to be:

ISM, MM (possibly with removed rosette denoting second award)

39-45 star, Africa star with 8^th army numerial removed, Italy star, F&G Star

Defence medal 39-45 war medal (with possibly removed MID), Korea Medal, UN Korea

GSM 1918-62, CSM 1962, UNFICYP, 1935 jubilee

1977 jubilee, army LS&GC, MSM, Swatch of cloth for mounting a kings / Queens commendation

A highly unlikely combination.

Cheers

Chris

[James Hoard]

I've been digging further in my old magazines etc. The OMRS published an article by John Tamplin in their Miscellany of Honours No 10 (published 1996).

Apparently there were 31 recipients of the MC with either the ISO (14) or ISM (17). Also there were 608 recipients of the MM with the ISM but none with the MM and ISO. So that would indicate that the ribbon bar is not correct unless possibly the ISM has been placed in the order where the ISO should be worn.

I am sorry to say that those statistics are incorrect.

I have a full list of ISO recipients since the inception of the order and have recorded ten recipients of the ISO who also received the MM. All the ISO appointments date from 1948 onwards.

Since some of the 10 also received other decorations that do not appear in the bar, we can probably narrow down the possible suspects further to:

8.6.1950 - Clarence Alvin Leembruggen, ISO, MM (Fiji)

31.5.1956 -

[James Hoard]

I've been digging further in my old magazines etc. The OMRS published an article by John Tamplin in their Miscellany of Honours No 10 (published 1996).

John had done a study of the ISO / ISM between 1902 and 1994 and produced a whole range of statistics including awards of other medals.

Apparently there were 31 recipients of the MC with either the ISO (14) or ISM (17). Also there were 608 recipients of the MM with the ISM but none with the MM and ISO. So that would indicate that the ribbon bar is not correct unless possibly the ISM has been placed in the order where the ISO should be worn.

Those stats cannot be correct.

I maintain a running list of ISO appointments since inception and can count 10 recipients of the ISO who also held the MM. All the dates of appointment for the ISO are from 1948 onwards.

Given that some of the 10 recipients also other honours which do not appear in the bar, we can narrow down the suspects a little further:

Clarence Alvin Leembruggen, ISO, MM - 8.6.1950 (Fiji)

Percy Frederick George Robertson, ISO, MM - 31.5.1956 (Ministry of Health)

John Pembroke Steele, ISO, MM - 13.6.1957 (Australia)

Donald Victor Darwin, ISO, MM - 8.6.1963 (Australia)

Thomas Patrick Boyd, ISO, MM - 1.1.1972 (DHSS)

John Henry Mallett, ISO, MM - 14.6.1975 (Foreign Office)

Arthur Cyril Robson, ISO, MM - 1.1.1976 (MAFF)

Cheers,

James

[Odin Mk 3]

Thanks for the correction - I was quoting from what JT had implied in what he had written in the article without having done any checks.

I've looked at your list of possible 'suspects' and still feel that most are unlikely because of the later campaign medals (Korea and GSM 1962) and the relative dates you give for the ISO awards. Also the fact that the chap has the MSM suggests to me that he probably left as a Warrant Officer. Therefore he is unlikely to have been able to enter the civil service and climb to the necessary grade to be eligible for the ISO (old Grade 7 and above). Plus as I mentioned in an earlier post the ISO is usually given after a fair number of years service (ie towards the end of a person's career).

The ISO is an unusual award, it's a pity that John Major decided to chop it for UK. I think that only Papau New Guinea has continued with the occasional award.

[Odin Mk 3]

Going a bit off thread but for those not familiar with the awards here is a photo of an ISO, ISM (design used up to 1920), and more recent ISM.

The QEII issue ISM shown was one made by a sub-contractor (Spink) around 1977 when the Royal Mint put the work out because of presssure of work to produce the 1977 Silver Jubilee Medals. The tale-tale sign is the way the suspender is pinned through the medal. Normally the QEII issues have the suspender pinned into the top of the rim of the medal by three (hidden) pins.

It is possible to approximately date many ISMs because of design differences. I could cover this in much more detail if anyone is interested.

[Odin Mk 3]

For some reason it added the post twice

Edited July 7, 2010 by Odin Mk 3

[Tony Farrell]

Please do. New thread though.

[Mervyn Mitton]

Odin - shared knowledge is the success of this Forum - the additional information will be valuable for reference.

[James Hoard]

Thanks for the correction - I was quoting from what JT had implied in what he had written in the article without having done any checks.

I've looked at your list of possible 'suspects' and still feel that most are unlikely because of the later campaign medals (Korea and GSM 1962) and the relative dates you give for the ISO awards. Also the fact that the chap has the MSM suggests to me that he probably left as a Warrant Officer. Therefore he is unlikely to have been able to enter the civil service and climb to the necessary grade to be eligible for the ISO (old Grade 7 and above). Plus as I mentioned in an earlier post the ISO is usually given after a fair number of years service (ie towards the end of a person's career).

Perhaps, but some of these fellows seems to have had interesting careers.

Mr Mallett, for example, joined the FO in 1937 and won his MM in the RAMC during the Second World War. Who knows, this may turn out to be his. He may have been one of those 'odd military types' found 'attached' to the FO and tend to turn up at the right place, at the right time, whenever there is local trouble afoot. Certainly the Order of St John at the end would fit with some sort of medical service.

As far as the ISO goes, the minimum required service period was 25 years and any statutory pensionable period in wartime service counted and was included.

Cheers,

James