Austria-Hungary The Military Merit Medal (Signum Laudis)

[Noor]

Hi guys,

Here is my today's arrival. Its a prefect shape bronze Military Merit Medal (Militär-Verdienstmedaille). What I understand is that this award can be just with two type of ribbons:

- Red, as a peacetime ribbon

- War ribbon ("am Kriegsband") - "laddered" pattern of red stripes edged in white and with white between the "rungs".

Now, this one is something totally different and the closest, what I know is actually imperial Russia Romanov's Dynasty Medal ribbon (white, yellow, black).

As you guys can see, its looks like this ribbon had been attached to the medal a long time and shows some age, wear.

First at all, had been foreigeners entitled to this award at all (as a peacetime award) and what type of ribbon was in use in this case? Meantime I think it was 100% only Austrians award, so what can be the explanation of this ribbon on my medal? Someone just did it for a fun? Came from the good source, who bought it years ago from market. If I am not happy with the medal, I can send it back, so some bad dealer profit dream is not a case.

Regards,

Timo aka Noor

[Guest IMHF]

Very Nice find you have some very nice pieces in your collection:) Love the aged ribbon mounting system.

Lorenzo

[Noor]

Thanks, but question is - does this ribbon should be in there

[Ian]

I am no expert, but I find it hard to beleive that the Signum Laudis would have worn on any ribbon other than the peace time red or wartime red/white laddered with which they would have been awarded. IMO some one at some time has added the current (incorrect) ribbon .

Ian

Edited August 14, 2010 by Ian

[Guest IMHF]

I am no expert, but I find it hard to beleive that the Signum Laudis would have worn on any ribbon other than the peace time red or wartime red/white laddered with which they would have been awarded. IMO some one at some time has added the current (incorrect) ribbon .

Ian

If this is correct, good information to know;)

Lorenzo

[Guest IMHF]

If this is correct, good information to know;)

Lorenzo

Do you have an image of the proper ribbon for this medal, thank you.

Lorenzo

[Noor]

Original ribbon:

http://www.austro-hu...o.uk/signum.htm

Also what confirm more the fact that mine is just a medal with random ribbon probably, is that the ribbon is attached "home made" style (again, remains more imperial Russian style - ex province, from where this piece came to me), so I am pretty sure that Ian is right.

Edited August 14, 2010 by Noor

[Guest IMHF]

Original ribbon:

http://www.austro-hu...o.uk/signum.htm

Also what confirm more the fact that mine is that its "home made", so I am pretty sure that Ian is right.

Awesome Link, I like the ribbon that you have on it now, just keep it the way you found it;)

Lorenzo

[Guest IMHF]

So this one would have an all solid red ribbon??

Lorenzo

[Josef Rietveld]

So this one would have an all solid red ribbon??

Lorenzo

Exactly, or the socalled red-white kriegsband (with swords for frontline service from december 1916) onwards) as mentioned before

josef

[Noor]

I think its clear aout the ribbon. To I remove it and replace wit correct one?

Also, was this award ONLY for Austrians or not in peactime???

[Guest IMHF]

I think its clear aout the ribbon. To I remove it and replace wit correct one?

Also, was this award ONLY for Austrians or not in peactime???

I would leave it as it is, looks great;)

Lorenzo

[Elvis]

Hello

nowerdays the "Signum Laudis" frontside looks like this:

Thanks

Elvis

[Elvis]

Hello

and the backside looks like this:

Thanks

Elvis

[Lukasz Gaszewski]

I have never heard of any "Signum Laudis" Medal ribbon other than solid red (for peacetime merit) or "ladder" (for wartime merit). I have consulted the literature available to me (Mericka, Schwarz) and they do not mention it either. Almost certainly nothing official. Also from what I know the "Signum Laudis", unlike the Militärverdienstkreuz, was not awarded to foreign nationals, being kind of "internal" decoration for officers of the Imperial and Royal Armed Forces only.

[Brian Wolfe]

Hello Everyone,

I'd like to comment on the question of whether the ribbon should be switched for the correct one or not.

I've just started collecting Imperial German and Austrian Empire medals so my opinion is based more on the material I have collected for a few decades now.

If the ribbon had any significance or a direct history connected to the recipient such as "Great Grandfather insisted on wearing the medal with this ribbon, even though it was incorrect" then I would say there was some weight to the suggestion to leave it as is. I doubt this is the case and would only be a wild guess at best to suggest this is the case here. We've all seen WWI Victory and BWM with the wrong ribbon, just refer to eBay. Most would agree that we would not consider leaving it as found. The only difference between this ribbon and the ribbon pictured below is that yours may be a bit more official, other than that I see them both in the same light. I would replace the ribbon you have with the correct one but keep this one in case you find the correct medal someday or as a part of the history of this particular medal albeit a ribbon that would not have been associated with the medal normally.

May the Medal Gods forgove my blasphemy for the following image.

Regards

Brian

[Tom Y]

IOf it looks like they've been together for a long time, I would say leave it. Someone had a reason for putting them together and, although we'll never know what it was, it should be respected (pink with black polka dots being an exception )

Here's an EKII I've had for several years with a bizarre ribbon that I've left as found and intend to keep that way.

[Brian Wolfe]

Hi Tom,

I would love to argue this with you if I didn't see your point. Darn!

The EK you have posted looks like it has a ribbon from a South Asian country and without checking I would say it looks a lot like the Bahawalpur/Pakistan ribbon, though the orange edges don't ring true, as that would indicate an Indian connection. Possibly some other state that joined with Pakistan?

I guess it is all in your point of view. An incorrect ribbon is still an incorrect ribbon. If one knew the recipient (ie. the medal was named) then I could see leaving it alone out of respect. However, we will never know the recipient's name in this case so I see it as an error.

The other factor is that collector's, like me, may be more compulsive obsessive types and insist on the ribbons being correct to the medal. In my case I can't stand my medals, in their storage drawers, to be out of alignment. Other's may be more casual and flexible. Then again others may not be as close to the obsessive lunic fringe as some.

Where does one get a Napoleonic hat?

Cheers

Brian

[Noor]

Thank you guys for your replays!

Here is my silver "Signum Laudis" but again... missing ribbon. Is there any unique details, what can help to determine period of produce; pre WW1 or war period. Then I would know which ribbons I need to look...

[Josef Rietveld]

Thank you guys for your replays!

Here is my silver "Signum Laudis" but again... missing ribbon. Is there any unique details, what can help to determine period of produce; pre WW1 or war period. Then I would know which ribbons I need to look...

The silver signum laudis was created in 1911 - short before the outbreak of ww1- so there are no differences between pieces issued 1911-1914 or 1914-1916, except silver ones with BRONZE on the rim dating from late ww1.

The bronce one was issued from 1890 to 1918

josef

Edited August 16, 2010 by Josef Rietveld

[Guest IMHF]

Hello Everyone,

I'd like to comment on the question of whether the ribbon should be switched for the correct one or not.

I've just started collecting Imperial German and Austrian Empire medals so my opinion is based more on the material I have collected for a few decades now.

If the ribbon had any significance or a direct history connected to the recipient such as "Great Grandfather insisted on wearing the medal with this ribbon, even though it was incorrect" then I would say there was some weight to the suggestion to leave it as is. I doubt this is the case and would only be a wild guess at best to suggest this is the case here. We've all seen WWI Victory and BWM with the wrong ribbon, just refer to eBay. Most would agree that we would not consider leaving it as found. The only difference between this ribbon and the ribbon pictured below is that yours may be a bit more official, other than that I see them both in the same light. I would replace the ribbon you have with the correct one but keep this one in case you find the correct medal someday or as a part of the history of this particular medal albeit a ribbon that would not have been associated with the medal normally.

May the Medal Gods forgove my blasphemy for the following image.

Regards

Brian

That is cool, reminds me of the Flintstones;)

Lorenzo

[Tim B]

Hi Timo,

Not sure if you got the answer you were looking for when it comes to ribbons but, as Josef pointed out, there is no real way to differentiate between these medals, other than the ribbon itself. I think the war ribbon looks nicer but not sure how scarcer the civil "all red" ribboned pieces are compared to the war issued medals.

If you want a period original ribbon, you may have to ask someone in Europe to see if you can find one. Other than that, you probably can find a modern, though correct replacement ribbon on eBay for $10. or less.

Here's a couple of mine that I finally got around to taking PIC's of. I have another bronze with swords that I can put up in a couple days when time permits. Then I'll be asking questions on the sword varieties.

Tim

Edited September 15, 2010 by Tim B

[Iver]

..by the bronze Signum Laudis it should be possible to date the medal (V.Merička).. the 1890-1895 issue should have 64 laurel leafs on the avers, the later issue (1895-) should have only 62 leafs but that is only by "BMVM", not for "SMVM"...

[Tim B]

Hello,

Many thanks for the additional information; Good to know!

I assume these are the laurel leaves you are referring to on the obverse edge, as the reverse only has 40 laurel leaves?

Tim

[Noor]

..by the bronze Signum Laudis it should be possible to date the medal (V.Merička).. the 1890-1895 issue should have 64 laurel leafs on the avers, the later issue (1895-) should have only 62 leafs but that is only by "BMVM", not for "SMVM"...

Thanks Iver! Great information! Regarding this, my bronze medal is 1895 and up issue.

Timo