Post your Imperial German Dog Tags

[Chris Boonzaier]

Richter certainly got around!! nice tag!

[JohnBurke]

Hello Fellow Members,

 

Below is my Imperial German Dog Tag for Offizier-Stellvertreter (“O.St.”) Heinrich Hühn.  He was in Reserve Infanterie-Regiment Nr. 222 (R.J.R.222.)  I'm not sure of the meaning for "C.N.116." which also appears on the tag.

 

Reserve-Infanterie-Regiment Nr. 222 was raised in Gießen (regimental staff and 1^st Battalion from the replacement battalion of Infanterie-Regiment Nr. 116) and Mainz (2^nd Battalion from the replacement battalion of Infanterie-Regiment Nr. 88, 3^rd Battalion from the replacement battalion of Infanterie-Regiment Nr. 117).

 

I haven't had much luck finding out any further details about this man but would like to know more about him if something exists.

 

Thanks, John

 

[The Prussian]

Hello John!

Is it a C or a G? If it is a G it could be Gewehr-Nummer (Gun-number).

Or it has something to do with the mentioned Inf.Rgt.116.

[JohnBurke]

Andy, Thanks for responding.  I've attached a close up of the "C.N: 116."  I see now that there is a colon after the letter "N". To me, it looks more like a "C" and not a "G".   Its not "Confederate Navy"!  I was thinking that it might be related to Inf.Rgt.116 as well.  I think the "N" might mean "nummer" but most of the English words that I can think of beginning with the letter "C" translate to a "K" in German.  Any other ideas?

 

[JohnBurke]

Here's another thought.  How about "Chef des Nachrichtenwesens: 116." or "C.N: 116." meaning "Director of Signals  Inf. Reg. 116" ?  The two letters before the number indicate that it might not simply be a "dog tag" serial number or ID serial number. But why this soldier would include that on his ID tag is somewhat of a mystery.

 

I found the above expression in the General Staff (Intelligence) General Headquarters book entitled "Vocabulary of German Military Terms and Abbreviations" dated July 1918.  The only way to confirm that interpretation would be to know more about O.ST. Heinrich Hühn's R.J.R.222. or I.R.116. actual job description.   

 

Other ideas?

[drspeck]

Nice thread

 

Here's my small contribution; this identification disc belonged to the later secretary of state Hans Freiherr von Welser. See also the following wiki page for a small bio (link). I also have 2 of his ribbons bars, please see the following GMIC page: link.
 

His disc says "B.Etapp.-Inspt.". I think this means Etappen-Inspektion or Inspektor. The "B" might mean "Bayerische". Please correct me if this is not the correct interpretation. The "Etappengebiete" were the areas that were used to (re)supply the front, so Hans was in some capacity involved with the supply of the army. I cannot find any records of his wartime period so I do not know what formal role he had. Interestingly, I did find his name on several French wartime proclamations from Cambrai, with a reference to the Cambrai Etappe, see also the following page: link.
 

Best. Peter

Edited January 23, 2022 by drspeck

[The Prussian]

Hello John!

I have never seen an stamp with "Chef des Nachrichtenwesens". But that doesn´t mean, it is impossible...

Sometimes the word "Kompagnie" was written with C, so maybe it´s just "Compagnie-Nummer"? That would explain the colon.

 

Hello Peter:

Hans v. Welser was Hauptmann der Landwehr. In the war-time he was "Höherer Zivilverwaltungsbeamter der Etappen-Inspektion 6" und "Kaiserlicher Geheimer Regierungsrat".

(Higher Civil Administrative Officer of Etappen-Inspektion 6" and "Imperial Privy Councillor of the Government."

Edited January 24, 2022 by The Prussian

[drspeck]

2 hours ago, The Prussian said:

Hans v. Welser was Hauptmann der Landwehr. In the war-time he was "Höherer Zivilverwaltungsbeamter der Etappen-Inspektion 6" und "Kaiserlicher Geheimer Regierungsrat".

(Higher Civil Administrative Officer of Etappen-Inspektion 6" and "Imperial Privy Councillor of the Government."

 

Nice, thanks for the information

[Fritz die Spinne]

This was an interesting blank I acquired. 

 

 

 

And for good measure, a nice Landwehr tag with some interesting history. 

KB LJR3, 6. Komp, #512

Vizefeldwebel Nagler 

Nagler later became Leutnant and then a pilot with two confirmed victories

Martin Rupp supplied some info:

11.11.15 he became Leutnant, making this disc obsolete. 
Pilot by 12.4.16 at the latest. First air victory 20.8.17, second 23.8.17 
wikipedia also has an Alfons Nagler, pilot with 10 victories but non of his dates match this one.

:

 

[JohnBurke]

Andy,

 

Thank you for clarification about the use of "C" versus "K".  I think "Compagnie-Nummer:" actually makes most sense. 

 

Now, I wonder if there is info about O. ST. Heinrich Hühn himself?  Other than his ID tag, I haven't found a reference that connects him to the R.J.R.222. His regiment's actions can be inferred by the operations of the 96. Reserve Infanterie Brigade under  48. Reserve Infanterie Division.  The regiment participated on both the Western and Eastern Fronts. The regiment ended the war on the Western Front fighting against the 3rd Canadian Division. Below is the Hühn's ID tag included as a part of a small grouping of related items.  The regimental history book covers only regimental activity in 1914 and Hühn's name is not mentioned within. 

 

Cheers, John

 

[The Prussian]

Hi John!

I´ve got the regimental history, but it´s a bad one... Only 54 pages and no names under a staff-officers rank.

[JohnBurke]

Andy, 

 

Yes, I have a copy too and, you are right, it doesn't have much in it.  Too bad.

 

I was thinking the Hühn may have come from 1. Ersatz-Bataillon Inf.-Rgt. Nr.116 aufgestellt in Giessen 1. & 3. Komp. (als 1. & 3. Komp.) zum Res.-Inf.-Rgt. Nr.222. 

 

There is a regimental history book "Geschichte des Infanterie-Regiments Kaiser Wilhelm (2. Grossherzoglich Hessisches) Nr. 116." I don't have a copy of it and I'm not sure it would contain a members list for their  1. Ersatz Bataillon.  But you never know unless you look.  If someone you know does have a copy, maybe they could have a look inside to see if Hühn is listed.

 

I did find a reference to a Heinrich Hühn at:

 

https://www.gelsenkirchen.de/de/bildung/ausserschulische_bildung/institut_fuer_stadtgeschichte/_doc/Gefallenenregister_WK_I_final.pdf

 

Hühn Heinrich  Born 09.05.1896  Schrök  Rank: Musketier  Killed: 15.06.1916  vor Verdun

 

But I don't think that can be him because that soldier was a "musketier" who was killed and not a Offizier-Stellvertreter.  Also no regiment was given.

 

Cheers, John

[The Prussian]

Hi John!

I don´t think you´ll get any infos about him in the regimental histories. The Hühn you found is not him. Gelsenkirchen is my neighbour-town and it doesn´t belong to Hessen...

AND. His "rank" as a Offizier-Stellvertreter was not a rank, but a duty position. He owned it just for the time he was needed to do that duty. His official rank will be Vizefeldwebel.

[JohnBurke]

Andy,

 

OK, very good. Based on what you told me I took a slightly different tact and looked on Ancestry.com. I think I found Vizefeldwebel Heinrich Hühn's marriage records and birth record as follows:

 

Born: 12 Jan 1877 Llershausen Hessen;  Married twice: First time on 24 Dec 1904 to Katharina Margarett Engle who apparently died; As a widower, he remarried again on 27 Nov 1909 to Katharina Löchel.  Place of Second Marriage: Gießen, Hessen; His parents: father Konrad Hühn, mother Katarine Hühn. 

 

The give away in this research was in the second marriage certificate it lists his rank as "Vizefeldwebel". Also, the place of marriage, "Gießen, Hessen", would have been where the 1. Ersatz-Bataillon Inf.-Rgt. Nr.116 was located. His birth date matches on all records. So, putting two and two together, he must have been in the 1st  battalion's staff or first company or third company which went to become part of R.I.R.222 and were he took on the duty position of Offizier-Stellvertreter as indicated on his ID tag. Also, he was in military service as early as 1909 but probably before that.  Only bad news, no specific military records found on him so far. Also, I have not found him on a military death or seriously wounded list yet so he must have survived the war relatively unscathed.

 

Cheer, John

 

 

 

[The Prussian]

Hi John!

That looks like a match! Congrats! Unfortunately they don´t mention his unit.

But I think everything fits!

 

Edited January 25, 2022 by The Prussian

[JohnBurke]

Andy, 

 

Just a few more thoughts to tie up our forum discussion. I was a military analyst and often had to speculate or “look between the lines” to interpret available intelligence and match it with physical evidence. And much like in detective work, some “facts” are often only circumstantial evidence. Our research here has led us to make the connections between Heinrich Hühn, his rank of Visefeldwebel, his job position (O. ST.), his marriage in Giessen Hessen, and with the 1. Ersatz Bataillon Inf. Reg. 116 also located in Giessen. Also, it was a matter of record that the Bataillon was tapped to provide staff as well as 1^st and 3^rd companies to fill the ranks of R.J.R.222. So, the physical ID tag with Heinrich Huhn’s name and “R.J.R.222.” stamp ties him directly to both R.J.R.222 and 1. EB IR 116.

 

As someone who has studied unit marks, if there is no “qualifier” as to company, for example, RJR222.1 or RIR222 1.K. showing connection to 1^st company, it normally means the stamp represents an item issued to the “stab” or “staff.” In this case, we know that 1. Ersatz Bataillon Inf. Reg 116 contributed members of its 1^st Battalion staff, 1^st Company, and 3^rd Company to R.J.R.222. Hühn chose only to put “R.J.R.222.” on his ID tag and did not specify a company (in this case either 1^st or 3^rd Company). This leads one to think that Hühn was assigned to R.J.R.222 1^st Bataillon staff or the Regiment staff and not specifically to a company. Also, he chose not to include his actual rank Visefeldwebel (or Vfw.) on his ID tag. Instead, he puts his job positional title of “O. ST.” or Stellvertreter. Why was that?

 

So, it comes down to the question of the meaning of “C.N: 116.” We have mentioned that it could mean “Compagnie-Nummer:” wherein the word “Compagnie” might be spelled with a “C” instead of a “K”. Thus giving the possibility that the number “116” is just the company “serial number” of his ID tag. But given the fact that Hühn chose to use his title “O. ST.” over his rank (Vfw.) on his ID tag, it seems perfectly logical that he might also specify what his job actually was on his ID tag. In addition, it seems much more than a simple coincidence that the suspected company number “116” matches with IR 116 Ersatz Battalion regimental number. This brings us back to the original question about the meaning of “C.N:” itself. It now begins to make more sense that “C.N: 116.” refers to Hühn’s job description on the staff of R.J.R.222. Also he wanted to maintain the connection to his original Bataillon as some reassigned soldiers often did.

 

I have mentioned that “C.N:” could be the abbreviation for "Chef des Nachrichtenwesens: 116." or "C.N: 116." meaning "Director of Signals: Inf. Reg. 116" or “Director of Intelligence: Inf. Reg. 116”. In more modern terms one could say “Director of Communications with Inf. Reg. 116.” or “Director of Intelligence from Inf. Reg. 116”.

I read somewhere that an active front line Imperial German infantry regiment would require about 2 companies in training per month in order to provide replacements for lost personnel (KIA, wounded, sick, leave) from the regiment. Wouldn't it make sense that someone on the R.J.R.222 staff was responsible for maintaining communication with the Ersatz (replacement) Bataillon to keep up with the flow of needed replacements? And that person could have been Offizier Stellvertreter (O. ST.) (Vfw.) Heinrich Hühn C.N:116.

 

How's that for connecting the dots?  

 

Cheers, John

[The Prussian]

Hello John!
You really put a lot of thought into this! Good work!
I also agree with you completely, there are many possibilities with the abbreviation. However, I don't think that the service position, which could also change, was stamped on the dog tags.
In German, the word "Company" was written with either C or K. Officially from 1901 with K, but this was not always followed.
As I said, it is difficult to say without more precise sources.