Portuguese Victory Medals

[Tim B]

As we start out, we can use this thread for Portuguese Victory Medals, variations in medals/ribbons, etc.

Tim

Portuguese (without the frontline combattant star):

Edited February 23, 2013 by IrishGunner

[RobW]

Hello all,

Here is a pic of an official type 2 Portugal vic with the combatant star and typical ribbon buckle.

Interested to see that this particular thread has had, as of today, 3,160 views. At least some people are looking!

Due to work commitments I will be having a break for a while.

Regards,

Rob

Edited October 25, 2009 by RobW

[Kev in Deva]

I just missed this little beauty on an online auction:-

Portuguese Mini Medal bar including mini Victory:-

Seems to have come away and been replaced the wrong way around.

at least I have the auction pictures

Kevin in Deva :cheers:

[Kev in Deva]

Rear:-

Kevin in Deva. :D

[Kev in Deva]

More

Kevin in Deva. :cheers:

[Kev in Deva]

More:-

Kevin in Deva. :beer:

[RobW]

I just missed this little beauty on an online auction:-

Kevin in Deva

Hello Kevin,

Thanks for the post.

That it is a nice Portuguese mini trio. I had previously seen a single Portugal vic mini but it was in very poor shape and without the ribbon.

There appears to be a flatter spot on the suspension ring of the Medal For Exemplary Conduct (white ribbon, green stripes). Could you ascertain if there was a hallmark present or was it just a flat spot or worn area? I have a Belgian vic mini in silver as well as a full size silver-gilt Belgian vic with a large rectangular hallmark on the suspension ring. Portugal did indeed use silver hallmarks between 1886-1938 but then again it may just be a flat spot on the suspension ring.

Vic mini's are another whole area you can focus on and it certainly rounds out a good vic collection with both single items and small groups still reasonably obtainable.

Regards,

Rob

Edited November 20, 2009 by RobW

[RobW]

To all,

To change direction a little, here is a Portugal unofficial type 2 vic. In Mr Laslo's reference book it is described as the 'cracked die' variety.

Note the cracks in the obverse design running from approximately the 5 o'clock position (as viewed) through the legs of victory and running upwards toward and parallel to the left hand and wing of victory. These cracks end at around the 10 o'clock position.

The planchet is quite thin.

Regards,

Rob

Edited March 15, 2010 by RobW

[RobW]

To all,

In both editions of the late Mr Alexander Laslo's book on victory medals 'The Interallied Victory Medals of World War 1 (Ed 1, 1986) (Ed 2, 1992) reference is made to a French reproduction of the Portugal vic.

The details provided in those references are:

Portugal-Reproduction Type 2

* Has 'BRONZE' and 'MADE IN FRANCE' impressed on the rim.

* Unknown diameter.

* Attached to a ball suspender.

There is no illustration in either book of this variety. The only difference in the listing of this variety between the two editions is that in Edition 1 the item is marked as 'Unconfirmed' whereas in Edition 2 this clarifying remark has been removed. The removal of this clarifying remark could lead me to the conclusion that the reproduction type 2 was unconfirmed at the time of the first Edition being released (1986) but confirmation of the existence of the variety was completed by the time the second Edition was published (1992).

In the never-ending research quest I am trying to resolve some of these information gaps and would appreciate any help from the collecting group.

My question is:

"Has anybody ever seen such a variety, or have an example in their collection?" If any collector has such an example it would be appreciated if you could confirm or clarify the existence of this variety, or post a pic for reference.

Regards,

Rob

Edited April 3, 2010 by RobW

[johnnymac]

Can I get a little help here, why the two bronze colored stars? Thanks, JM

[Tim B]

Hi JM,

I was only aware of the single small silver star denoting the medal was awarded to a combattant.

Tim

[johnnymac]

Can I get a little help here, why the two bronze colored stars? Thanks, JM

Hi Tim, Thanks for the feedback. I too believed it only come with one silver star, plain or with a"C" which was listed in a earlier GMIC forum (2007).

JM

[RobW]

Can I get a little help here, why the two bronze colored stars? Thanks, JM

Hello JM,

As has already been alluded to the more regularly identified star, found on the Portugal vic is much smaller and in a silver finish.

Of note is that while the particular ribbon is definitely attributable to that of Portuguese manufacture (there are many varieties of the vic ribbon directly attributable to specific countries which aids in authenticity) the ribbon buckle shown is less likely to have been original to this vic.

Ribbon buckles are commonly seen on a wide variety of Portuguese medals and in this case the ribbon buckle is significantly narrower than the accompanying ribbon. The ribbon buckles that are regularly seen on portugal vics are both narrower in width and depth but also have a more bronzed finish. They are also generally flush with the edge of the ribbon.

It is likely that such a buckle has been placed on this vic, with the larger than normal ribbon stars to embellish the award.

This information would also add to the long running general vic thread.

Regards,

Rob

[johnnymac]

Hello JM,

As has already been alluded to the more regularly identified star, found on the Portugal vic is much smaller and in a silver finish.

Of note is that while the particular ribbon is definitely attributable to that of Portuguese manufacture (there are many varieties of the vic ribbon directly attributable to specific countries which aids in authenticity) the ribbon buckle shown is less likely to have been original to this vic.

Ribbon buckles are commonly seen on a wide variety of Portuguese medals and in this case the ribbon buckle is significantly narrower than the accompanying ribbon. The ribbon buckles that are regularly seen on portugal vics are both narrower in width and depth but also have a more bronzed finish. They are also generally flush with the edge of the ribbon.

It is likely that such a buckle has been placed on this vic, with the larger than normal ribbon stars to embellish the award.

This information would also add to the long running general vic thread.

Regards,

Rob

Hi Rob, good to see you back:

I purchased this on a "buy now" the price was wellunder $50. It come from Canada and theseller stated that it was his Great Grandfather's (which all have heardbefore). But he also listed severalother WWI items, 2 badges & 1 belt buckle (all Portugal) and all at a verylow price. His feedback for items soldwas for household items and his rating was (482) for items sold. My question then is? Why have I not seen this type buckle beforeand if is a repro, and why not at least make it like the silver star one (whichis known to be good). True it wouldembellish the award but it would also leave a lot of questions. So why not do one silver star and call it aday.

The Buckle is around 37mm by 11.5mm and the stars are the typeyou bend the two pins back (The stars and buckle are not made as oneunit). The back-strap of the buckle isforced bent into the ribbon on the reverse side (possibly by the owner). Which might account for some of tightness atthe ribbon sides. As you have pointedout in the past on ribbons, there could be a slight difference betweenMfg.

Just maybe this two bronze star buckle combo was issued at alater date for reasons yet not known.

As always regards (JM)

[Kev in Deva]

Hallo Gents,

just a thought but, was the 2 bronze star buckle originally intended for the Victory Medal?

Too my eyes it appears to be pulling the ribbon in on the right-hand side, suggesting to me it was meant for a narrower ribbon.

Is the ribbon original PortugueseIAVM ribbon or a version of the US/UK replacement ribbon?

Hopefully we can get confirmation from a Portuguese G.M.I.C. member with regards the ribbon insignia and clasps.

The "Bible" The Inter-Allied Victory Medal of World War 1 /2nd Revised edition) by the Late Alexander J. Laslo, only makes mention of the Silver Star :-

"Decree Number 6:756 of the 10th July 1920 established a silver star suspension and service ribbon device to recognise those persons who served in combat as defined by Decree No:6186.

This five-pointed star has a radius of 3mm and was to be placed in the middle of the ribbon buckle. The star is secured to the ribbon by two prongs which are pushed through the (ribbon) fabric and then bent over."

Kevin in Deva.

[johnnymac]

Hi Rob, good to see you back:

I purchased this on a "buy now" the price was wellunder $50. It come from Canada and theseller stated that it was his Great Grandfather's (which all have heardbefore). But he also listed severalother WWI items, 2 badges & 1 belt buckle (all Portugal) and all at a verylow price. His feedback for items soldwas for household items and his rating was (482) for items sold. My question then is? Why have I not seen this type buckle beforeand if is a repro, and why not at least make it like the silver star one (whichis known to be good). True it wouldembellish the award but it would also leave a lot of questions. So why not do one silver star and call it aday.

The Buckle is around 37mm by 11.5mm and the stars are the typeyou bend the two pins back (The stars and buckle are not made as oneunit). The back-strap of the buckle isforced bent into the ribbon on the reverse side (possibly by the owner). Which might account for some of tightness atthe ribbon sides. As you have pointedout in the past on ribbons, there could be a slight difference betweenMfg.

Just maybe this two bronze star buckle combo was issued at alater date for reasons yet not known.

As always regards (JM)

[johnnymac]

Hallo Gents,

just a thought but, was the 2 bronze star buckle originally intended for the Victory Medal?

Too my eyes it appears to be pulling the ribbon in on the right-hand side, suggesting to me it was meant for a narrower ribbon.

Is the ribbon original PortugueseIAVM ribbon or a version of the US/UK replacement ribbon?

Hopefully we can get confirmation from a Portuguese G.M.I.C. member with regards the ribbon insignia and clasps.

The "Bible" The Inter-Allied Victory Medal of World War 1 /2nd Revised edition) by the Late Alexander J. Laslo, only makes mention of the Silver Star :-

"Decree Number 6:756 of the 10th July 1920 established a silver star suspension and service ribbon device to recognise those persons who served in combat as defined by Decree No:6186.

This five-pointed star has a radius of 3mm and was to be placed in the middle of the ribbon buckle. The star is secured to the ribbon by two prongs which are pushed through the (ribbon) fabric and then bent over."

Kevin in Deva.

Hello Kevin,

As we all know not all things were available to the collecting world market in 1992. Lasko's book is very much the standard we all use, but because new items turn up on the new market " the world wide web", we have to question them. That is one of the joys of collecting. Lasko's himself did a second edition on his book because there was more information to get out. You say: "DecreeNumber 6:756 of the 10th July 1920 established a silver star suspension andservice ribbon device to recognize those persons who served in combat as defined by Decree No:6186". But "do" we know for a fact that there were no other decree's ever made for the Portuguese Victory medal in the next 90 years?

Yes it could be an after market buckle and stars and if so, might be covered by the fact that many of the veterans did not get their medals from the their own government (which happen in many other countries), but they did purchased their Victory medal from private suppliers.

Maybe we will get someone who will read this posting and who can fill in the missing pieces.

(JM)

Edited December 19, 2010 by johnnymac

[johnnymac]

Hello Kevin,

As we all know not all things were available to the collecting world market in 1992. Lasko's book is very much the standard we all use, but because new items turn up on the new market " the world wide web", we have to question them. That is one of the joys of collecting. Lasko's himself did a second edition on his book because there was more information to get out. You say: "DecreeNumber 6:756 of the 10th July 1920 established a silver star suspension andservice ribbon device to recognize those persons who served in combat as defined by Decree No:6186". But "do" we know for a fact that there were no other decree's ever made for the Portuguese Victory medal in the next 90 years?

Yes it could be an after market buckle and stars and if so, might be covered by the fact that many of the veterans did not get their medals from the their own government (which happen in many other countries), but they did purchased their Victory medal from private suppliers.

Maybe we will get someone who will read this posting and who can fill in the missing pieces.

(JM)

[Kev in Deva]

With regards the two pictures in your last, how can we be sure that the Police medal with clasp & star are original as a issue item?

The second picture shows the normal clasp that was common to the Portuguese victory medal however, from the front it appears not to be pulling the ribbon out of line as much as the pictures posted previous.

My understandings from reading Mr. Laslo book with regards the Portuguese Decree's concerning the Portuguese Victory medal award and Commemorative Medal of the Campaigns of the Portuguese Army, Mr. Laslo mentions:-

Decree No. 5:400 of April 12 1919 with regards the "Clasp "Batalha de La Lys, 9-IV-918" for those wounded in the Battle of Lys.

Provisions for the "FRANCA 1917 - 1918" clasp because of it being associated with the Victory Medal.

Decree No. 6:568 of 24 April 1920 :- completely revised the service criteria of Decree No. 6:186, including the provision for three month's combat service and eliminated those articles of Decree No. 6:186 pertaining to those eligible.

(Clasps:- "FRANCA 1917 -1918" or "MOCAMBIQUE 1914 - 1918." for the Commemorative Medal of the Campaigns of the Portuguese Army.)

this was later amended by Decree No. 8:993 of 17 July 1923 to include those military personnel referred to in Law No. 1:123 of 4 March 1921. (Establishment of clasps for the Commemorative Medal of the Campaigns of the Portuguese Army for service during the war in the maritime defense of the "Entrenched Camp of Lisbon" and the cities of Funchel (Madeira Islands) and Ponte Delgada (Azores).

Those clasps bear the legend:-

"C.E.L.,Defensa Maritima 1916-1918",

"Funchal, Defensa Maritima 1916-1918",

"Ponta Delgada, Defensa Maritima 1916-1918"

Decree No. 6:186 :- stipulates the design criteria. (later amended by Decree No. 7:464 of 25 April 1921.

With regards Decree No. 6:186 Mr. Laslo writes:- " as with many Portuguese medals a ribbon buckle of dull (matte) bronze was also prescribed.

The ribbon buckle appears to have no special significance and may have been primarily intended as a decorative device for securing the two halves of the suspension ribbon when folded over the French style mounting bar typically used by the Portuguese.=

Decree No. 6:186 - the names of eligible Army personnel published in Divisional orders from rolls provided by subordinate commanders, and its likely that a similar arrangement was established for Navy personnel.

So it appears Mr.Laslo had good access to the Portuguese Archives, (the same can not be said for those countries that ended up in the Eastern Block, (Czechoslovakia, Romania,) or as in the case of the Siamese / Thailand example, civil service indifference to certain information and statistics.

All we can hope for is to see some period pictures of these Portuguese clasps in wear on recognizable dated pictures of military persons or veterans.

Or a publication in English of the original Decree material from the Portuguese Archives.

Kevin in Deva. :cheers:

[Tim B]

Hi guys,

Just showing another example here.

I never actually measured my buckle but, it is more of a darkened or blackened bronze with a thin backstrap. Here's a PIC that I posted in the other thread on Victory Medals of the World. Ribbon appears original and is sewn such that the backstrap is concealed. Picked it up from a collector in Portugal. The buckle, in my case, is not pulling on the ribbon at all and the outside edge actually protrudes just beyond the ribbon edge. Unfortunately, this one does not have the small silver star for combattants.

I often wondered how many have had stars added overtime and would like to see close-ups of actual legitimate stars for this medal. I know the US continues to make small silver stars (3/16") for ribbons (+ 5 awards) and I have some concerns that some of these examples might actually have these type stars added for embellishment. The US style is different from the original Portuguese style though, I believe.

Tim

[johnnymac]

With regards the two pictures in your last, how can we be sure that the Police medal with clasp & star are original as a issue item?

The second picture shows the normal clasp that was common to the Portuguese victory medal however, from the front it appears not to be pulling the ribbon out of line as much as the pictures posted previous.

My understandings from reading Mr. Laslo book with regards the Portuguese Decree's concerning the Portuguese Victory medal award and Commemorative Medal of the Campaigns of the Portuguese Army, Mr. Laslo mentions:-

Decree No. 5:400 of April 12 1919 with regards the "Clasp "Batalha de La Lys, 9-IV-918" for those wounded in the Battle of Lys.

Provisions for the "FRANCA 1917 - 1918" clasp because of it being associated with the Victory Medal.

Decree No. 6:568 of 24 April 1920 :- completely revised the service criteria of Decree No. 6:186, including the provision for three month's combat service and eliminated those articles of Decree No. 6:186 pertaining to those eligible.

(Clasps:- "FRANCA 1917 -1918" or "MOCAMBIQUE 1914 - 1918." for the Commemorative Medal of the Campaigns of the Portuguese Army.)

this was later amended by Decree No. 8:993 of 17 July 1923 to include those military personnel referred to in Law No. 1:123 of 4 March 1921. (Establishment of clasps for the Commemorative Medal of the Campaigns of the Portuguese Army for service during the war in the maritime defense of the "Entrenched Camp of Lisbon" and the cities of Funchel (Madeira Islands) and Ponte Delgada (Azores).

Those clasps bear the legend:-

"C.E.L.,Defensa Maritima 1916-1918",

"Funchal, Defensa Maritima 1916-1918",

"Ponta Delgada, Defensa Maritima 1916-1918"

Decree No. 6:186 :- stipulates the design criteria. (later amended by Decree No. 7:464 of 25 April 1921.

With regards Decree No. 6:186 Mr. Laslo writes:- " as with many Portuguese medals a ribbon buckle of dull (matte) bronze was also prescribed.

The ribbon buckle appears to have no special significance and may have been primarily intended as a decorative device for securing the two halves of the suspension ribbon when folded over the French style mounting bar typically used by the Portuguese.=

Decree No. 6:186 - the names of eligible Army personnel published in Divisional orders from rolls provided by subordinate commanders, and its likely that a similar arrangement was established for Navy personnel.

So it appears Mr.Laslo had good access to the Portuguese Archives, (the same can not be said for those countries that ended up in the Eastern Block, (Czechoslovakia, Romania,) or as in the case of the Siamese / Thailand example, civil service indifference to certain information and statistics.

All we can hope for is to see some period pictures of these Portuguese clasps in wear on recognizable dated pictures of military persons or veterans.

Or a publication in English of the original Decree material from the Portuguese Archives.

Kevin in Deva.

Hello again Kevin

The medal with the one silver star which I posted was fromthe web site of OMAS Forum - 2006 Onemember posted this question: The Obverse states: Republic Portuguese, Public Safety. Reverse states: Humility, Patriotism,Dedication and Altruism 1926. This is a Police Public Safety Medal for the servicesstated on the reverse of the medal. I have been unable to find out the meaningof the star attached to the ribbon and would appreciate feedback regarding itsmeaning.

The answerer he received came from: Jorge Filipe Brandao Quinta-Nova Coleccionador de Codecoracoes Militares Portuguesas. And he replied back"According to the 1929 legislation, this is the Assiduity medal forsecurity forces, Article 15 of this regulation states the design of the decorationalways in silver and that 1silver star is for 10 yrs. service, 2 stars 20 yrs.and 3 stars for 30 yrs".

So I think someone out there thinks that this Star and itssize is official, that is why I posted it.

As for the buckle, in looking for my answerer I have seenmany buckle that were over sized, just right and slightly tight. Maybe at the time their mfg. standards werenot what they were in the U.S.A.

JM

Edited December 20, 2010 by johnnymac

[johnnymac]

Hi guys,

Just showing another example here.

I never actually measured my buckle but, it is more of a darkened or blackened bronze with a thin backstrap. Here's a PIC that I posted in the other thread on Victory Medals of the World. Ribbon appears original and is sewn such that the backstrap is concealed. Picked it up from a collector in Portugal. The buckle, in my case, is not pulling on the ribbon at all and the outside edge actually protrudes just beyond the ribbon edge. Unfortunately, this one does not have the small silver star for combattants.

I often wondered how many have had stars added overtime and would like to see close-ups of actual legitimate stars for this medal. I know the US continues to make small silver stars (3/16") for ribbons (+ 5 awards) and I have some concerns that some of these examples might actually have these type stars added for embellishment. The US style is different from the original Portuguese style though, I believe.

Tim

Hi Tim, thanks for your input, . I posted a secondmedal also with a large star from the OMAS forum site (there was no date forthis medal).

Regards JM

Edited December 20, 2010 by johnnymac

[Tim B]

Hey JM,

Yes, a good example posted. If you look at the top star, you can see the star edges have flat borders, while the second star edges slope completely to the edge of the star.

When I look at the styles of stars mounted on various medals awarded by several countries during that time frame, 90% of those stars have the same basic attribute; those flat edges on borders. I'm not sure if it's a French/European thing, as French manufacturers produced a lot of the awards along with the ribbons/attachments, but the style seems pretty consistent. throughout the various countries.

On the other hand, the US made stars are of the style without the flattened borders and always have been as far as I know. I assume here, in the case of an American receiving the French CdG, those stars are of the first variety as the award was not US.

So, I would personally feel more comfortable with the top buckle/star than I would with the one below it. Maybe I am wrong here and need to see more Portuguese items or have a knowledgeable source come in, but when I see a star like the 2nd one, I automatically question whether someone added it to embellish the ribbon for combattants.

Tim

[johnnymac]

Hey JM,

Yes, a good example posted. If you look at the top star, you can see the star edges have flat borders, while the second star edges slope completely to the edge of the star.

When I look at the styles of stars mounted on various medals awarded by several countries during that time frame, 90% of those stars have the same basic attribute; those flat edges on borders. I'm not sure if it's a French/European thing, as French manufacturers produced a lot of the awards along with the ribbons/attachments, but the style seems pretty consistent. throughout the various countries.

On the other hand, the US made stars are of the style without the flattened borders and always have been as far as I know. I assume here, in the case of an American receiving the French CdG, those stars are of the first variety as the award was not US.

So, I would personally feel more comfortable with the top buckle/star than I would with the one below it. Maybe I am wrong here and need to see more Portuguese items or have a knowledgeable source come in, but when I see a star like the 2nd one, I automatically question whether someone added it to embellish the ribbon for combattants.

Tim

Hi Tim

Referring to my earlier posting - On the bottom vic medal which you just did a reply too, I would totally agree with you, it looks out o fplace.

Again referring to my earlier posting - On the top vic medal note how much the first medal's star matches the star used by the French.

My illustration shows a yellow box around one with three stars in it. The two stars on each end are silver and note how dull they are. All "metals" oxidize to some degree no matter how well they are kept. Yet, the photo of the star on the top of my earlier posting looks like it just came out of the box. The medal and star in question is on the bottom of my latest posting.

(JM)

Edited December 21, 2010 by johnnymac

[RobW]

My illustration shows a yellow box around one with three stars in it. The two stars on each end are silver and note how dull they are. All "metals" oxidize to some degree no matter how well they are kept. Yet, the photo of the star on the top of my earlier posting looks like it just came out of the box. The medal and star in question is on the bottom of my latest posting.

(JM)

JM,

On the medal in question; when actually reviewing the piece in my hand the small star is not so shiny as it appears in your picture and has lost some of the silver finish.

Again it would be good if this discussion could be moved to the main vic thread as it contributes to that subject. Any thoughts??

Rob

Edited December 21, 2010 by RobW