British Victory Medals

[Gunner 1]

davidck: As you indicate it is sometimes difficult to tell the difference. Type II VMs which have lost their gilt or have been subjected to chemicals or smoke can sometimes look like a Type I. In those cases the only way to tell which type you are dealing with is to look closely at the suspension. A Type I VM to a Lieutenant was sold on eBay last week and had nice photos (see eBay item 191029335680).

[davidck]

Argh, I was actually watching that one but didn't bid because I wasn't sure if it was a type 1. Looking at the suspension, I don't see what makes it different...it looks just like my type 2.

[Bilco]

Hi Dave,

I have to agree with you - I would have thought Type 2 as well! Perhaps I should give up looking for the Type 1.

Bill

[Gunner 1]

davidck and Bilco: What makes the suspension different is that it in the Type I it was produced separately from the planchet and then soldered to the planchet; in the Type II the suspension is part of the planchet. There is no doubt in my mind that the VM in eBay item 191029335680 is a Type I as it has all the characteristics of a Type I and the recipients Medal Index Card indicates that the VM was issued to him on 3 November 1920 (the Type II VM was not approved or produced until January 1921). I was the winning bidder on that lot and expect to receive it in the mail in the next few days. Once it arrives I will post some scans of the medal and the suspension.

[RobW]

Hello Gunner 1,

davidck and Bilco: What makes the suspension different is that it in the Type I it was produced separately from the planchet and then soldered to the planchet; in the Type II the suspension is part of the planchet. There is no doubt in my mind that the VM in eBay item 191029335680 is a Type I as it has all the characteristics of a Type I and the recipients Medal Index Card indicates that the VM was issued to him on 3 November 1920 (the Type II VM was not approved or produced until January 1921). I was the winning bidder on that lot and expect to receive it in the mail in the next few days. Once it arrives I will post some scans of the medal and the suspension.

Has this item arrived yet??

Regards,
Rob

[Gunner 1]

The photo below is the VM to 2nd Lt. Hornell that was for sale on eBay. It has all the characteristics of a Type I VM: dark-chocolate color; rough, sand-blasted surface; the engraver's name showing lack of detail; suspension soldered to planchet; unsoldered suspension ring.

[davidck]

Thanks for the picture, Gunner. I am still confused on how to tell if the suspension is saudered. The suspension on this example looks indistinguishable from others I've seen. Can someone explain how to tell?

[muckaroon1960]

This topic has also been posted in the British Medal section.

I Have in my collection a WW1 Victory medal to Pte T Leedham 11688 Warwickshire Regiment but the reverse has been erased. All the wording and laurels have completely gone?

Very strange. Has anyone seen this before and why has this been done?

Could it be the recipient didn't believe it was The Great War for Civilisation?

[Tony]

Just a thought, perhaps he wore his medals but had strong thoughts as to whether it was a Great War for Civilisation.

Tony

[peter monahan]

That was my thought as well, Tony. I believe Muckaroon was wondering whether any of the Vic Medal mavens had come across this before.

[cazack]

Hi

I am looking to see if anyone can help me. I have just received a Victory medal named to the following:

S - 18099, PTE. J.PATERSON. GORDONS

I have searched both ancestry as well national archives and cant find his MIC

if anyone can help with this would be appreciated

regards and thanks in advance

Caz

[Bilco]

Hi Gents,

Well, I'm hoping my search for the elusive Official Type 1 is over. Just received today, a WW1 pair to Private A L Kimble of the Devonshires and Labour Corps. Joined aged 40, discharged in 1917.

Obverse:

Reverse:

It has the 'chocolate' colour and matt finish, and the all-important soldered suspension - some close-ups:

Obverse:

and reverse:

Finally, his records at TNA include a slip sent out with the medals, requiring him to sign to acknowledge receipt, and it appears to be dated 17/12/20 - before the Type 2 started to be issued in January 1921:

So, am I right? All comments welcome.

Bill

Edited July 15, 2014 by Bilco

[Gunner 1]

Bilco: Looks like a Type 1 to me and the date of the receipt seems to reinforce that assumptiion. For those of you who are members of the OMRS, I have a follow-up article on the British Type I Victory Medal being published in the September 2014 issue of their Journal.

[Bilco]

Many thanks for the thumbs-up, Dick - I was beginning to think I'd never find one!

Bill

[RobW]

Hi Bill,

Hi Gents,

Well, I'm hoping my search for the elusive Official Type 1 is over. Just received today, a WW1 pair to Private A L Kimble of the Devonshires and Labour Corps. Joined aged 40, discharged in 1917.

So, am I right? All comments welcome.

Bill

I would agree that you have definitely managed to obtain a type 1. I would also be checking the solder joint on the suspension ring as well to see if it corresponds with that seen on others. Interestingly enough I also have two type 1 vics to members of the Labour Corps.

Is there a common thread here with members having a parent corps and then moving onto the Labour Corps later?

Good pick up.

Regards,
Rob

[Bilco]

Hi Rob,

Many thanks for your comments. The joint in the suspension ring shows solder but there is a gap and the ends of the ring arre slightly mis-aligned:

The joint on one of my Type 2s for comparison:

Were your two Labour Corps men early discharges like my Pte Kimble? With a big enough database of the dates of issue of the Type 1 vics we might be able to see a common thread - early discharges, certain units - did the Labour Corps admin staff have a particular order in which they issued the medals to their people, for example.

Regards,

Bill

[lambert]

Excellent acquisition Bill. really not easy to find.

Lambert

[RobW]

Hello Bill,

Hi Rob,

Were your two Labour Corps men early discharges like my Pte Kimble? With a big enough database of the dates of issue of the Type 1 vics we might be able to see a common thread - early discharges, certain units - did the Labour Corps admin staff have a particular order in which they issued the medals to their people, for example.

Regards,

Bill

My collection and the associated research files, for each medal and group, are in long-term storage and not located with me. From my master collection list the entries for both of the vics, in question, are to members of the Labor Corps. Interestingly both were also in the Devon Regiment so there may be some link there.

It is interesting that now we have at least three pairs to members of the Labor Corps with the type 1.

Regards,
Rob

[Gunner 1]

As I mentioned in an earlier post, I have a second article on the Type I Victory Medal being published in the September 2014 issue of the Journal of the Orders and Medals Research Society. In that article I discuss the differences between the Type I and Type II VMs and using the 27 Type I VMs that I have so far identified (12 of which are in my collection) look at the distribution of the medals in terms of regiment and ranks to which they were issued. Fifteen were issued to the Royal Artillery, two to the Dragoon Guards, and two to the QAIMNS, with the rest to various infantry regiments (I did not know about the Labour Corps awards mentioned above at the time of writing the article about a year ago). You will have to read the article for the rest of the information but suffice it to say that the vast majority of the 27 Type I VMs were to persons awarded a 1914 Star.

Regards, Gunner 1

[Bilco]

HI Gents,

It's said of London buses, that you wait hours for one, then two turn up together. I'm hoping this is also the case with the Type 1! My latest acquisition:

Obverse:

Reverse:

Close-up of suspension on reverse:

And close-up of join in the ring, showing the obverse:

The ring is a bit mis-shapen. This medal is darker brown that the one in post # 162, the surface is rather smoother, and there is a slight reddish tinge, especially on the reverse. However, the suspension is soldered. I notice now that the Type 1 doesn't have such a marked plinth for the suspension, as this also shows. The edge matches the obverse and reverse in tone.

The medal was awarded to Cpl A Hodgson of the RE and Labour Corps - another of those, Rob! Sadly, there is no document in his Service Records to show when the medal was sent to him - is it possible to determine this from the information on the MIC?

So, am I right with this one, too? All comments welcome.

Bill

Edited July 25, 2014 by Bilco

[Gunner 1]

MIC for other ranks usually do not show the issue date (most officer's MICs do) but a copy of the medal roll for the Victory Medal for Cpl Hodgson might indicated the date of issue.

[RobW]

Hi Bill,

HI Gents,

It's said of London buses, that you wait hours for one, then two turn up together. I'm hoping this is also the case with the Type 1! My latest acquisition:

The ring is a bit mis-shapen. This medal is darker brown that the one in post # 162, the surface is rather smoother, and there is a slight reddish tinge, especially on the reverse. However, the suspension is soldered. I notice now that the Type 1 doesn't have such a marked plinth for the suspension, as this also shows. The edge matches the obverse and reverse in tone.

The medal was awarded to Cpl A Hodgson of the RE and Labour Corps - another of those, Rob! Sadly, there is no document in his Service Records to show when the medal was sent to him - is it possible to determine this from the information on the MIC?

So, am I right with this one, too? All comments welcome.

Bill

While the medal certainly does have the tone and patina of a type 1 it is a bit difficult to be certain. A gentle clearing of the residue on the barrel suspender will give more of an idea if it is indeed soldered.

It is most interesting that the member in question was also in the Labour Corps. There may be a pattern forming here. To echo what Gunner 1 has indicated the MIC will be no help as the details are not provided, unlike officer MICs which have much more detail; including dates. Other than an acknowledgement receipt, as per your Private Kimble example, the extant medal rolls may provide some more contextual information.

Regards,

Rob

[davidck]

I may have finally acquired a British Type 1, but am unsure. As you can see, it has a bit of a shine to it, but it's a very dull shine and the suspension appears that it may have been soldered. Unfortunately, these are the best pictures I can get right now, as the medal is actually at my parents' house and I will not have it for a few months.

Even though it is a tad shinier than the other Type 1s I have seen, the reason I think this is Type 1 is because of the medal roll card, which indicates it was received on 15 November 1920, before the Type 2 was produced.

So, what are your opinions? Have I misidentified something or is this just a Type 1 that is in unusually good condition?

[Gunner 1]

The suspension of the medal and the date of issue of the medal on the MIC indicate that it is a Type I VM, but it is much lighter than the normal Type I. The extensive strengthening of the suspension and the lightness of color may well be due to a 'refurbishing' of the medal prior to sending it to the recipient.

My information indicates that he was serving with the Lahore Division Ammunition Column, RFA in 1917.

[davidck]

Thanks for the info, Gunner, I was wondering if the recipient might have tinkered with it to give it a sheen.