German Ribbon Bar Help

[alan_g]

Hi,

I have this very nice ribbon bar in my collection. I know the majority of the awards are Imperial German, But the latter of his awards show he survived WWI to be given the 1934 honour cross and also had some form of participation in the 1936 Olympic Games.

From the awards on the ribbon bar can anyone ascertain a possible rank for this person?

Look forward to any help.

[Deruelle]

Hi,

You are right about your ribbon bar, it is very nice.

I think it is an officer ribbon bar. Why, because of the Princely Hohenzollern peacetime ribbon. But usually the swords on the thrid first ribbons should be in gold and not in silver like here. But there is a lot of mistery about ribbon bar

It is possible to make a photo of the back please ?

Regards

Christophe

[alan_g]

Hi Christophe,

Here is a photo of the back.

Best Regards.

Alan

[alan_g]

anyone?

[kapten_windu]

IMHO at least it's belong to rank major..

[alan_g]

I thought this one would be a straight forward ID with the Principality of Waldeck award and the other imperial awards. Major is a good start though :)

[Ulsterman]

If it's real- I reckon that was a beamters' bar. I'd LOVE to paw this one.

[Claudius]

Hi,

I have this very nice ribbon bar in my collection. I know the majority of the awards are Imperial German, But the latter of his awards show he survived WWI to be given the 1934 honour cross and also had some form of participation in the 1936 Olympic Games.

From the awards on the ribbon bar can anyone ascertain a possible rank for this person?

Look forward to any help.

OK...I'll go out on a limb and say I don't like the ribbon bar. Perhaps an unpopular position, but I'll name SOME of the reasons why I don't like it.

The sword devices don't all match. Not just the color, but the size/shape.

All of the swords are the narrow angle type. If this is suppose to be the SKM, the ribbon doesn’t need the swords. If this is supposed to be a SEK, the swords would be the wider angle type. (There are instances of swords on SKM, but I believe this was a personal decision for the NCO or lower, to indicate that it wasn’t a different Schwarzburg medal)

The devices don’t line up.

Does the Olympic medal get an eagle device? I don’t usually see them, but I don’t know the regs, or the all the different circumstances.

This gent received an amazing four different state awards and a Bulgaria (pre-war) cross but shows a stunning lack of officer grade awards.

[Ulsterman]

Well-yeah. That's kind of what I was thinking. Odd huh? Yet there are some odd Beamter types out there where stuff like this happened-and their bars tend to look this clean and fresh because they got stuck away in drawers and not worn every day.

Hmmmmm...time to call the Batcave in Massachusetts.

[Claudius]

Hmmmmm...time to call the Batcave in Massachusetts.

That's a great idea. I would like hear his thoughts.

[alan_g]

"The sword devices don't all match. Not just the color, but the size/shape.

All of the swords are the narrow angle type. If this is suppose to be the SKM, the ribbon doesn’t need the swords. If this is supposed to be a SEK, the swords would be the wider angle type. (There are instances of swords on SKM, but I believe this was a personal decision for the NCO or lower, to indicate that it wasn’t a different Schwarzburg medal)

The devices don’t line up.

Does the Olympic medal get an eagle device?"

Hi Claudius I appreciate your comments, but have to tell you that the alignment of all the ribbon bar devices are central to the bar.

Sword devices can often be a mixture of sizes and shapes on any ribbon bars. As for the colours, these would represent different medal grades?

I have sometimes noticed, looking at sword devices in my collection, that outfitters used one type of swords on Imperial awards, and different swords on Third Reich awards. But there is also the factor of supply and demand. Did they have enough in stock etc? Some ribbon bars use the same sword devices on all awards, whether Third Reich or Imperial or a mixture of the two.

The Olympic ribbon with the eagle represents the higher grade award, which is quite rare. I have another police ribbon bar with this device also.

See what other thoughts and opinions arise :)

[Claudius]

"The sword devices don't all match. Not just the color, but the size/shape.

All of the swords are the narrow angle type. If this is suppose to be the SKM, the ribbon doesn’t need the swords. If this is supposed to be a SEK, the swords would be the wider angle type. (There are instances of swords on SKM, but I believe this was a personal decision for the NCO or lower, to indicate that it wasn’t a different Schwarzburg medal)

The devices don’t line up.

Does the Olympic medal get an eagle device?"

Hi Claudius I appreciate your comments, but have to tell you that the alignment of all the ribbon bar devices are central to the bar.

-Acknowledged that you do have it in front of you. It appears from this photo that the TR service device is slightly high, as well as the Ruess swords.

Sword devices can often be a mixture of sizes and shapes on any ribbon bars. As for the colours, these would represent different medal grades?

-not likely. The HK didn't have different grades.

I have sometimes noticed, looking at sword devices in my collection, that outfitters used one type of swords on Imperial awards, and different swords on Third Reich awards. But there is also the factor of supply and demand. Did they have enough in stock etc? Some ribbon bars use the same sword devices on all awards, whether Third Reich or Imperial or a mixture of the two.

-Interesting. Could you show us those ribbon bars?

The Olympic ribbon with the eagle represents the higher grade award, which is quite rare. I have another police ribbon bar with this device also.

-I submit to your knowledge. I don't know a lot about this award.

See what other thoughts and opinions arise

[alan_g]

Hi Claudius,

The HK did have different grades. Three infact:

Fur Frontkampfer (Combatants) with swords

Fur Kriegsteilnehmer (Non Combatants) without swords, light bronze

Fur Hinterbliebene (War Widows) without swords, dark bronze.

The 1st two are the only types worn on a post 1934 ribbon bar. The latter of the awards would have been bestowed upon a widow.

Something else I have in my collection, and that I am VERY lucky to own, is a WWII tailors shop board which features most of the backing plates used in the manufacture of these ribbon bars. Because most of these pieces of pre-cut metal were finished off by hand there is always some room for "human error" in the finishing process. The ribbon bar board explains finishings, manufacture techniques. Very useful information and the only (to my knowledge) physical evidence of detailed manufacture and construction which exists on this topic. :love:

Edited September 21, 2011 by alan_g

[alan_g]

Here is the image of varients etc.

[Ulsterman]

This is a fascinating ribbon bar. May I take a picture of it? The Olympic awards-well-we apparently have the award lists for the upper classes of the medal (not me-but the man in the batcave).....soo.......maybe........

[Claudius]

Sorry, I thought we were talking about HK with sword grades.

Although you are correct and I should have said that there are; with swords, without swords and widow crosses. There are minis for watch fobs as well as stickpins, button holes and other variations for wear. I have a 1930s period catalog that shows the medal bar and ribbon bar pieces, the and the miniatures that were available for purchase.

Thank you for showing these ribbon bars.

First one; That is a really small sword device. It looks small. I can’t imagine the recipient coming to pick-up his newly made ribbon bar from the tailor and accepting this. I tend to believe that he lost his swords somewhere and this was the best replacement. Strange that the eagles don’t line up. I can’t tell exactly, but what is the last ribbon?

Second one; Great. Yes those last two are small angle swords. The first two (Bulgarians) are the wider angle swords to distinguish them from the latter ones. I noticed that number 4 ribbon is missing a sword device.

Third one; Yes that KVK and Hungarian have different swords from the two commemoratives. Strange how the Hungarian commemorative is ostracized on the other side of the other two. Again, the devices don’t appear to line up.

Forth one; Nice one. Those swords are different, but barely so. Like #1, #2 and #3, maybe that one lost his swords early on and this was a VERY close match. Having these bars blown up to twice size in a photo it is easier to see differences, but if someone is wearing them on your tunic and standing a meter and half away…it’s indistinguishable.

[alan_g]

Perhaps the colour of the swords devices reflects the colour of the medals as well as hierarchy?

There are HUNDREDS if not thousands of different types of sword devices. So don't get confused or hung up on the idea that everything has to match.

Attached are some more examples of different types of swords and an eagle device that doesn't align.

The 1st ribbon bar is a cloth backing. The swords are original to the bar. nothing has been replaced or tampered with. Variety is the spice of life as they say... The last ribbon on the bar could be Swedish or Finnish with it having a Baltic cross. There is also a Hungarian award with a similar coloured ribbon also.

"Having these bars blown up to twice size in a photo it is easier to see differences, but if someone is wearing them on your tunic and standing a meter and half away…it’s indistinguishable". Like wise for the ribbon bar at the beginning of the thread.

As I say it could that the recipient wanted different swords on his state awards than on his combat awards? We will never know the reasons as to why. It's like for example why some soldiers decided to wear mini west wall devices on their ribbon bars, again it comes down to personal choice.

Ulsterman if you wish to take a copy of the bar I can email you?

[Claudius]

Perhaps the colour of the swords devices reflects the colour of the medals as well as hierarchy?

There are HUNDREDS if not thousands of different types of sword devices. So don't get confused or hung up on the idea that everything has to match.

Attached are some more examples of different types of swords and an eagle device that doesn't align.

The 1st ribbon bar is a cloth backing. The swords are original to the bar. nothing has been replaced or tampered with. Variety is the spice of life as they say... The last ribbon on the bar could be Swedish or Finnish with it having a Baltic cross. There is also a Hungarian award with a similar coloured ribbon also.

"Having these bars blown up to twice size in a photo it is easier to see differences, but if someone is wearing them on your tunic and standing a meter and half away…it’s indistinguishable". Like wise for the ribbon bar at the beginning of the thread.

As I say it could that the recipient wanted different swords on his state awards than on his combat awards? We will never know the reasons as to why. It's like for example why some soldiers decided to wear mini west wall devices on their ribbon bars, again it comes down to personal choice.

Ulsterman if you wish to take a copy of the bar I can email you?

You do have a good number of examples that I've seldom seen in period photos.

[Ulsterman]

ummm...isn't there a swords on ribbon bars table of comparison in Ricks' article?

I already scanned and printed and mailed it to the bat-cave.

The Saxon bars are sweet! I would LOVE to own bar #3!

[Ulsterman]

Sorry-

It is bad news I am afraid. A letter-(hand written and sealed in wax-old school) has arrived from the Bat Cave.

Rick thinks it is a fake.

To quote: "YUCKY. "I find it interesting in Generation 2011 here as it APPEARS to have the correct punched out catch but.....it is rght at the edge. If it WAS punched out of the backing...it would snap out. There should also be a hole in every space in that sort of (mock here) backing. If no "dimple" under the ribbons without devices.....YUCKY! Also, no HEK3x and SEK4X and Waldeck something silver-with-Xs-trio. We have the rolls done to instantly eliminate such wickedness nowadays. Rather like the 2nd class Olympics there too. ...etc..

[alan_g]

"There should also be a hole in every space in that sort of (mock here) backing. If no "dimple" under the ribbons without devices.....YUCKY!"

• There are drilled holes underlying every ribbon. See photos.
  

"I find it interesting in Generation 2011 here as it APPEARS to have the correct punched out catch but.....it is rght at the edge. If it WAS punched out of the backing...it would snap out"

• The catch is actually bent. There is no specification by the RZM to where a catch should be placed? So I am at a loss on that evaluation. The catch is the correctly stamped out type on the correct metal backing plate.
  

"Also, no HEK3x and SEK4X and Waldeck something silver-with-Xs-trio"

• All ribbons on 2nd, 3rd and 4th place were entitled to bear the swords devices. According to my book.
  

Ignore the Olympic decoration and see if a more thorough search through the archives relates this bar to one particular person?

I did initially suggest better photographs... see attached...

[alan_g]

Catch

[alan_g]

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[alan_g]

Close ups

[alan_g]

Catch