KCVO

[James Hoard]

Michael,

Was it old, was it modern, approximate date?

You see the problem. Without much detail we have got much to go on except "annecdote". "

"I danced with a girl, who danced with a man, who danced with a girl, who danced with the Prince of Wales".

[James Hoard]

Komtur,

Here's the text from the emedals website. I hope he does not mind me cutting and posting here, but since you cannot access the page on-line perhaps he will not mind too much.

"

British Awards for Gallantry

The Awards of Colonel Waller, C.V.O., O.B.E.

A fine C.V.O., O.B.E. group of eight awarded to Colonel Stanier Waller, Royal Engineers, Honorary Equerry to H.R.H. The Duchess of Albany The Royal Victorian Order, C.V.O., Commander’s neck badge, silver-gilt and enamel, reverse officially numbered ‘C41’; The Most Excellent Order of the British Empire, O.B.E. (Civil) Officer’s 1st type breast badge, silver-gilt, hallmarks for London 1917; Egypt and Sudan 1882-89, dated reverse, 1 clasp, Tel-el-Kebir (Capt. S. Waller, R.E.); Jubilee 1887, clasp, 1897, silver; Coronation 1902, silver; Coronation 1911, silver, these unnamed; Ottoman Empire, Order of Medjidie, 4th Class breast badge, silver, silver-gilt, gold and enamel, stamp marks on reverse; Khedive’s Star 1882, unnamed, generally good very fine. Footnote: C.V.O. London Gazette 16 February 1904. ‘Colonel Stanier Waller, late Royal Engineers, Honorary Equerry to Her Royal Highness the Duchess of Albany.’ O.B.E. London Gazette 7 June 1918. ‘Colonel Stanier Waller, C.V.O., County Director, Auxiliary Hospitals and V.A.D.s, Oxfordshire.’ Order of the Medjidie London Gazette 4th Class 17 November 1882. ‘... in recognition of their distinguished services before the enemy during the late campaign in Egypt.’ Stanier Waller was appointed a Lieutenant in the Royal Engineers on 9 December 1864. Promoted to Captain in February 1878. Served in the Egyptian War of 1882 as Aide de Camp to Brigadier-General Nugent, Commanding Royal Engineers. He was present at the battle of Tel-el-Kebir, for which he was mentioned in despatches, received the brevet of Major (November 1882), was awarded the Order of Medjidie 4th Class and received the Queen’s medal and Khedive’s star. Waller was promoted to Major in December 1884, to Lieutenant-Colonel in December 1891 and to Colonel in July 1897. Later, for service as Honorary Equerry to the Duchess of Albany, he was awarded the C.V.O. For his wartime work as County Director of the Auxiliary Hospitals and Voluntary Aid Detachments of Oxfordshire, he was awarded the O.B.E. With copied gazette extracts and other research. Princess Helena of Waldeck & Pyrmont married Prince Leopold, Duke of Albany, the youngest son of of Queen Victoria in 1882. Two years later the Duke, who suffered from haemophilia, died in an accident. The widowed Duchess died in 1922."

http://www.emedals.ca/catalog.asp?item=BAG273

Looks like your CVO did not belong to Waller after all.

Cheers,

James

[Komtur]

... The 134th appointment on the list of Commanders of the Royal Victorian Order was Colonel Stanier Waller ...

The Awards of Colonel Waller, C.V.O., O.B.E. ... Victorian Order, C.V.O., Commander’s neck badge, silver-gilt and enamel, reverse officially numbered ‘C41’ ... Looks like your CVO did not belong to Waller after all.

That´s odd indeed .

To come back to my question above: also if it is not the decoration of colonel Waller, an order numbered C134 should be awarded in the early 20th century?

Regards, Komtur.

[James Hoard]

Komtur,

Your insignia is definitely an early 20th century example, despite the issue over the number. The type of crown used (Imperial) and the low number confirm it.

When it comes to the numbering, while it is perfectly reasonable to assume that returns were re-issued I sometimes wonder if it is in the interest of dealers to cast doubt about them. It certainly makes it much easier to attach any old badge to an individual's decorations if it happens to be missing, and then command a higher price for the lot.

Cheers,

James

[Sal]

James

That being said, I would think it plausible that my example is an un-numbered piece that was later numbered to make the pair into a set. I note that there is no "C" preceding the number on the Commander badge, which I surmise would be appropriate; or would I expect to see numbering only on newer issued pieces? I am convinced the 2 were joined to make a set, but trying to determine if the Commander badge is a legit awarded piece with the breast star added later or vice versa.

Tony

[Komtur]

James, thanks for your statement!

Regards, Komtur.

[QSAMIKE]

Good Morning Gentlemen......

I have been trying for a long time to find out who this is.....

Mike

[Jakob Seerup]

The Royal Danish Arsenal Museum holds a GCVO which was awarded to a Danish General in 1908. The cross has number 272. This will give you an idea of the approximate date of other numbered insignia.

By the way, The Central Chancery at St. James's Palace are quite reluctant to disclosing details of recipients - just to save you the trouble.

Best regards

Jakob Seerup

[Odulf]

For a long time I have been interested in this Order and in particular in the numbering. If have kept logs over a long time about badges offered on te market. If any one is interested, please send me a message with an e-mail address and I will send what I have compiled, it may shine some light on this matter.

[GlennC]

Michael,

Very interesting indeed.

Which was the last numbered Royal Victorian Order to a foreigner you saw? What was his name and what was the number?

Cheers,

James

LVO awarded on 25 June 1990 to Mrs Vigdis Bjarnadottir- Island. Order number L107

[theartfullodger]

Hi guys! Ist time poster so please bear with my stupidities...

I've just acquired from the estate of my late aunt the KCVO of my much later uncle, died 1992, KCVO'd 1961.

I have no plans to dispose of it ("it" being Star, round-the-neck medal-thingy, a small medal-on-ribbon to wear on lapel (I think) and one with 3 other medals for formal dinners). The small one on it's own not pictured.

The two largest are stamped "K 892"..

Any suggestions as to what they are worth ?? Being family heirloom (he had no children, I am nephew...) I wanted them to keep in the family and hope my boys will feel likewise when I go.. I paid the estate less than £500

Also have various other "Royal" items - something (?it's in the roof now - A3 or A4 size) being the grant of KCVO, 20+ "Royal" Christmas cards signed Elizabeth R & Philip, private signed letters from each also, A3 appointment to Royal Household signed by Elizabeth, small metal/gilt box inscribed inside "Presented by the Queen to Sir B...", Photo albums of sir B.. with various royals etc etc etc .. etc etc etc..

Me, I'm mere common humanity myself... He was a very decent, honourable, straight man. And my late aunt was a lovely lady who got on with everyone at all levels..

Cheers!

Edited October 7, 2012 by theartfullodger

[peter monahan]

A couple interesting [to me]points hin this discussion.

1) Since at least the 1980s it seems to be the case that the Chancery does not provide info. on awards. The change occurred then, according to popular legend, when a new man took charge, one who didn't approve of people collecting orders, and ordered that queries not be answered. This may now be official policy.

2) Technically, many [all?] orders are the property of the monarch and as such should be returned to her/him on the death of the recipient. While this is clearly honoured more in the breach than the observance, there are clearly some cases in which it happens. Given the thrifty nature of the public service - [insert your own rude comment here] - it seems quite possible to me that the two awards were matched up by the Chancery. Just happening to have matching numbers would be pretty long odds, but stranger things happen.

Or, perhaps - I'm not a jeweller - it is possible to put a new back on, buff down the original back or do some other magic to remove one number and allow for a second to be added! Obviously anyone - recipient, dealer, Elvis - can add a number but I'm assuming that the Chancery does in fact have access to the jewellers who made the original order and so could make a very good stamp at producing a 'restamp' which wouldn't look like a restamp.

My thruppence worth! This kind of discussion is what makes this Club such a joy! well worth the price of admission.

Peter

Edited October 8, 2012 by peter monahan

[Mervyn Mitton]

Artful Dodger - welcome to GMIC - and thankyou for adding to this post. Since you have shown the Order and given the numbers,

is there a reason why you can't tell us who he was ? I'm sure Members will find this interesting and it will save a lot of time doing

research. Mervyn

[QSAMIKE]

2) Technically, many [all?] orders are the property of the monarch and as such should be returned to her/him on the death of the recipient. While this is clearly honoured more in the breach than the observance, there are clearly some cases in which it happens. Given the thrifty nature of the public service - [insert your own rude comment here] - it seems quite possible to me that the two awards were matched up by the Chancery. Just happening to have matching numbers would be pretty long odds, but stranger things happen.

Or, perhaps - I'm not a jeweller - it is possible to put a new back on, buff down the original back or do some other magic to remove one number and allow for a second to be added! Obviously anyone - recipient, dealer, Elvis - can add a number but I'm assuming that the Chancery does in fact have access to the jewellers who made the original order and so could make a very good stamp at producing a 'restamp' which wouldn't look like a restamp.

Peter

Hello Dodger......

I do not know where Peter gets the idea that matching numbers are accidental they are supposed to be matching.....

The K892 is correct and should and would show up on all documentation etc. with regards to that award.....

Please leave them alone.....

Mike

[peter monahan]

Mike & Dodger

I read the whole of this thread in one go this morning and was responding to the earlier discussion Around the two pieces Sal has. My apologies for any confusion I may have created.

[or am labouring under]

Respectfully,

Peter

Edited October 8, 2012 by peter monahan

[theartfullodger]

Artful Dodger - welcome to GMIC - and thankyou for adding to this post. Since you have shown the Order and given the numbers,

is there a reason why you can't tell us who he was ? I'm sure Members will find this interesting and it will save a lot of time doing

research. Mervyn

Lodger not Dodger: I don't dodge.. (it's a common misreading of the name, one sees what one expects... )

No problem: He's my uncle Basil, Sir Basil Smallpeice.. my mother's brother so I do not share the surname...

http://www.independe...ce-1533712.html

Thanks for the welcome!!

Cheers!

Edited October 8, 2012 by theartfullodger

[Mervyn Mitton]

Thankyou for adding his name - I'm sure that will make the post more interesting. What was his position

with the Royal Family ? Sorry about the Lodger/Dodger - much easier with a first name.......... Mervyn

[QSAMIKE]

Thankyou for adding his name - I'm sure that will make the post more interesting. What was his position

with the Royal Family ? Sorry about the Lodger/Dodger - much easier with a first name.......... Mervyn

Hi Mervyn.....

It is in his obit / bio......

"Administrative Adviser Her Majesty's Household 1964-80"

also

It mentions that he was a Financial Advisor to the Royal Family.....

Mike

[theartfullodger]

But he was knighted before he became part of royal household, in 1961, I understand for services to do with arranging royal flights etc etc etc (he was at the time MD of BOAC ...). Advising royal household etc etc came later... I think he did it for nothing but haven't found the evidence for or against..)

Re. foreign persons he also (I found out today, executors having passed on more papers..) renounced Brazilian citizenship in 1927.... (born of English parents in Brazil so by the then laws of both countrys a citizen of both Brazil & UK..)

Edited October 9, 2012 by theartfullodger

[medalworld]

For those who keep records of RVO numbers, from a Danish auction in Nov. 2010, I purchased CVO numbered on the back as "L.82", part of a group of ODMs to Countess Wava Armfelt (1924-2008). From 1955, she was Head Lady-in-Waiting to Priness Margrethe of Denmark, who became Queen in 1972. It is in a CVO box, but the box is wider than the normal man's CVO box, and of course it's on a lady's ribbon. The label on the back of the box says "C/L82 on two lines. I assume the "L" in the number indicates a lady's award. Can someone confirm this please?

[medalworld]

As Countess Armfelt's CVO wearing instructions insert shows, the insignia was NOT returnable upon the death of the recipient. RVO insignia may have been returnable in earlier days, but by the time this award was made, likely the latter second half of the 20th century, apparently that requirement was obsolete. Does anyone know when the return rule was changed?

[James Hoard]

As Countess Armfelt's CVO wearing instructions insert shows, the insignia was NOT returnable upon the death of the recipient. RVO insignia may have been returnable in earlier days, but by the time this award was made, likely the latter second half of the 20th century, apparently that requirement was obsolete. Does anyone know when the return rule was changed?

As far as I am aware, RVO insignia were returnable only on promotion to a higher grade.

From the outset, the order was largely conferred on foreigners. The return of insignia on the death of holders would have required a major logistical operation, quite beyond the capabilities of the Foreign Office and Consular Service, and thus never even considered. In fact, expensive components of a Knight Grand Cross, as was usual in other British orders (e.g. collars), were avoided for the same reason - recovery would be difficult. Collars only came in very much later, when the number of appointments of foreigners to the order were drastically cut back. Even then, they were not usually conferred on foreign GCVOs except in very rare instances.