FAKES!

[RobW]

This forum is a great read, I only wish i could get a copy of Laslo's book but dont have the $138 being asked for it at Amazon. A good reference book on the subject is well worth having.

Martin

Hello Martin,

I would suggest (if you can) that you hold off on obtaining any more pieces for your collection and buy the book instead. It is, as you stated, a good reference book well worth having. Having the book is a precursor to the knowledge and would better inform and guide subsequent purchasing choices.

The value of a good reference work cannot be underestimated, especially in such an international field as the vics.

Regards,

Rob

[Bilco]

Hi Martin,

You can ask your local library to get Laslo on the Inter-Library Loan system, which will allow you to at least read through the content. It is the one book that vic collectors need though.

Bill

[Martin Burr]

Many Thanks RobW and Bilco

I shall try to see if my local library can get hold of a copy of the Laslo book. I understand RobW's advice that a good grounding in knowlege can save many bad initial purchases and shall take the advice to research each type of Vic purchesed. Is there a rough guide as to the ballpark values of each version?

Martin

[RobW]

Is there a rough guide as to the ballpark values of each version?

Martin

Hello Martin,

The question on medal values is probably one of the most discussed topics in any collecting field.

There is two areas here that need to be understood; market values and collector values. I think a close look at sales on the various online auction houses, ebay sites, and other online medal dealers should give you a general guide as to the prices you could expect for each of the varieties. There is then what a specific collector will pay for the same item; and this may not always be consistent with the market value.

I think the numbers minted estimate that is listed in the now increasingly dated Laslo reference, are a good guide, to the relative scarcity of each variety. That should at least give you an indication as to how frequently different pieces turn up in the market. That, in turn, should provide a guide as to what sort of price range you are likely to be looking at, to obtain the piece.

I would recommend you keep a price list and update it over time. This will give you a bench-mark to the prices listed. This won't take into account one-off's or other single anomalies for pieces that are just so hard to achieve (I use the hallmarked Brazil official type 1 as an example) but it would be a start.

Regards,

Rob

[Bilco]

Hi Martin,

On the 'good grounding in knowledge' aspect - have you read through the 37 pages of the second topic from the top in this section? - http://gmic.co.uk/index.php/topic/17245-ww1-victory-medals-of-the-world/

It covers the postings that were made before the dedicated Interallied Victory Medals of the Great War section was created - not long after I joined GMIC. There are lots of good colour photos of most of the vics and their varieties, as well as comparisons with dubious examples. These were my main source before I got my copy of Laslo - although I did the Inter-Library Loan bit as well.

Bill

[Martin Burr]

Hi Bilco

Many thanks for the link

This thread is indeed a great reference with many great closeups.

Martin

[Martin Burr]

Hi Guys

I must admit that the Italian Vic is my favourite and the one i shall likely concentrate on. As i'm still waiting for the library to advise me of an available copy of the Laslo book, can any one inform me where the major fakery with Italian vics lie, preferably with some images?

Many Thanks

Martin

[Bilco]

Hi Martin,

As far as I know there isn't much fakery of the Italian vics. There were so many issued, and the prices they fetch are so reasonable, that it wouldn't make a lot of sense to fake the common ones.

If you get the three makers - Sacchini, S Johnson, and Lorioli & Castelli (long and short), plus the one with no maker's name (but with the Orsolini designer's name) that's a good start. The Czech-made Unofficial variants (with the smaller figure of Victory) are more rare and might get faked. I've seen an Italian one with the exergue blank, which should (according to Laslo) have the date on the reverse as MCMXV-MCMXIII instead of the normal MCMXIV-MCMXIII, but the one I saw had the MCMXIV date, so is suspect.

There are some good photos on the Italian Victory Medals thread here http://gmic.co.uk/index.php/topic/49858-italian-victory-medals/page-1

Bill

[Martin Burr]

Hi Bilco

Many thanks for the fast reply. I was rather hoping that due to to the Italian Vics being common that they wouldnt be seriously faked. I do have types 1,2,3,3a at present and saw another that would have been a Type 5, but like your posted example, the dates were still 1914 to 18. It appears that the variants to these medals are Italy: Official Type 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, Reissue 1, 2, Unofficial Type 1, 2, 3, 4, at least 3 Repro Types.

I would be keen to know more about the Reissues, Unofficials and Repro types, as these seem to outnumber the official types.

Thanks

Martin

[Bilco]

Hi Martin,

Right, firstly the Reissues:

Laslo says that the Type 1 is by S Johnson and has less detail than the official type - I believe that the staffa is thicker and the colour is lighter. The type 2 has no designer or maker's names, and there are detail die differences to the official type. Date MCMXIV.

The Unofficial:

The Type 1 is the Czech-made with smaller Victory. The other types are quite different designs - there are pictures here http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=auto&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fmiles.forumcommunity.net%2F%3Ft%3D49110969

On the Repros:

The Type 1 is a cast copy of the S Johnson, made in Britain

The Type 2 is a cast copy of the Lorioli & Castelli

The Type 3 is a copy of the Czech-made Unofficial type 1 with die variations, the most notable of whichj is the letters at the top of the inscription on the reverse. I posted one in the Italian thread a few months ago.

The official Tpe 5 is the standard design with no designer or maker's names and date MCMXV.

Hope this helps.

Bill

[Martin Burr]

Hi Bill

Many thanks for a great comprehensive reply.

Do I take it that a more light Bronze looking Johnson may not necessarily mean that it's a Type 1 reissue, or is that a given? I have seen some Italian vics as bright as a UK Vic, though most are the more dark tanned brown.

I believe that a Type 2 reissue sold on ebay in that last few days, it was unmarked with regard to maker and Orsolini but had the MCMXIV on the reverse. It went for over £40. Would these still be regarded as collectible?

The cast copies sound daunting, do these look significantly inferior to originals?

Many thanks for your continued help

Martin

[Bilco]

Hi Martin,

There is a photo of the Reissue Type 1 compared with the Official Type here http://gmic.co.uk/index.php/topic/17245-ww1-victory-medals-of-the-world/page-31#entry442716 post # 618. That gives some idea of the colour.

The Type 2 reissue is certainly collectible - was the eBay one from the same seller as the odd Belgian that Jim flagged up? There is a photo here http://gmic.co.uk/index.php/topic/17245-ww1-victory-medals-of-the-world/page-5#entry365405 post # 81.

There is a photo of the Repro Type 3 here http://gmic.co.uk/index.php/topic/17245-ww1-victory-medals-of-the-world/page-16#entry385690 post# 303.

I haven't seen the cast copies - Laslo's book 2nd edition came out in 1992, but it was first published in 1973, so these cast copies are quite old. There are usually indications of casting - 'soft' detail, pitting or tiny hemispheres from trapped air in the casting process, unclear lettering, where the casting material has filled-in spaces in and between letters, and a rough raised ridge around the edge.

There is a nice shot of the main types together here http://gmic.co.uk/index.php/topic/17245-ww1-victory-medals-of-the-world/page-5#entry365405 post# 88.

Hope this helps,

Bill

[Martin Burr]

Thanks again Bill for some excellent further clarification.

Here's the recent auction for an un-maker marked MCMXIV.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Very-rare-Italy-WWI-Victory-medal-without-markings-/261151594228?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3ccdd916f4&nma=true&si=iH4YRoAAB%2BZ38rpSfN831M03ktE%3D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

Edited January 15, 2013 by Martin Burr

[Bilco]

Hi Martin,

Yes, that's the one. I suppose that these could be faked quite easily from a standard Offical Type 1 by buffing the exergue down to remove the maker's and designer's names. See posts# 25 and 30 on page 2 of this thread.

Bill

Edited January 15, 2013 by Bilco

[Martin Burr]

Hi Bill

Saw your post 30 and the image - definitely some scratches in the exergue on that one.

Ebay is a great place, but you have to tread carefully !

Martin

[Martin Burr]

A selection of new die stamped medals on offer, though clearly marked as reproductions. Check out the other items for sale in the victory range

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Die-Stamped-COPY-of-the-ROUMANIA-Interallied-Victory-Medal-Full-Size-/111001129644?pt=UK_Collectables_Militaria_LE&hash=item19d82ed2ac

Martin

posts edited as i'm not that adept at inserting the links !

Edited January 15, 2013 by Martin Burr

[Bilco]

Hi Martin,

Wot, no Siam! There is a very good copy of the Siam vic on eBay US http://www.ebay.com/itm/b0070-World-War-I-Victory-medal-for-Siam-Thailand-/350569677917?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item519f94c45d The seller is NCHS - National Capital Historical SAles, which I believe is based in Vietnam. This is a well-known fake.

The colour of the items you posted about is a give-away - but someone will try to age them and pass them off as kosher.

Bill

[Martin Burr]

Hi Bill

I believe that I have seen that Siam before, at least again it was marked as a repro. Thanks for allerting me

Martin

[lambert]

Selling at eb_y

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Original-WWI-Victory-Medal-With-7-Bars-/190791511316?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2c6c0f6d14

Lambert

Edited February 1, 2013 by lambert

[Martin Burr]

Hi Lambert

Thanks for the link.

I have seen many of these multi-bar USA Victory's -is it just the combination of the bars (and the bars) that are fake?

Martin

[johnnymac]

Clasps from the top down numbered 1, 2 & 4 are not official issue. They are late reproductions sold by vendors at shows and veterans conventions. You can find them on ebay each and every day, mostly as single army clasp for sale.

see these:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/AISNE-BAR-WW-I-Victory-Medal-DEVICE-/290855069233?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item43b8502631

http://www.ebay.com/itm/A01-ARMY-WWI-VICTORY-MEDAL-CAMBRAI-BAR-/271101521558?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3f1ee8ee96

http://www.ebay.com/itm/A09-ARMY-WWI-VICTORY-MEDAL-OISE-AISNE-BAR-/271124300245?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3f204481d5

http://www.ebay.com/itm/LYS-BAR-WW-I-Victory-Medal-DEVICE-/390531881004?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item5aed83982c

[lambert]

Hi all

the ribbon is clearly Britannic, the pin is 'original' was deployed over this ribbon, purple has been sewn on the sides.

I think .. that is a piece doubtful

Jim, look here :

http://gmic.co.uk/index.php/topic/49863-american-us-victory-medals/page-1

Lambert

[johnnymac]

Hi Lambert you are correct that is posting #10

[johnnymac]

Hi Lambert, I also note that posting #10 did not mention the 4 clasps down as also being wrong. This is the same medal on ebay and these unofficial clasp are not so rare as I just stated
they are being sold almost on a daily basis on ebay. Sometimes the seller even sells all 14 of these clasps as set. Jim

This is not a enhanced medal done by a veteran, unless you want to believe it is.

Oi Lambert, eu também notar que a publicação n º 10 não mencionou as quatro grampos para baixo como também estar errado. Esta é a mesma medalha no ebay e estes fecho oficial não são tão raros como eu disse

eles estão sendo vendidos quase diariamente no ebay. Às vezes, o vendedor ainda vende todas as 14 destes grampos como conjunto. Jim

Esta não é uma medalha de melhor feito por um veterano, a menos que você quer acreditar que é.

[johnnymac]

I hope this helps all members