Corps of Guides

[Chris Boonzaier]

Hi,

I am looking for a couple of photos of men from the corps of Guides to use for an article, must be about 1915-17.

Any help greatly appretiated.

Thanks

Chris

[Graham Stewart]

Chris,

Are you talking about the same "Corps of Guides" created as part of the Technical Reserve in 1910? If it's the same Corps I'm talking about then you may be hard pressed to find any photo's, considering they were civilians and a non-uniformed organisation right up until August 1914. Whether or not they were uniformed after that date I couldn't say for certain or how long they remained a functioning organisation due to changes within the Reserve formations.

The Corps which was formed in Northumberland was based upon the Counties Wards, but I have no idea how the remainder of the countries other Guides units were formed.

Graham.

[Ed_Haynes]

I assumed -- silly me -- that he was takling about the Corps of Guides (of the Indian Army). Oops. Was I looking for the wrong pictures . . . ??

[Chris Boonzaier]

Nope, I mean Indian Army corps of guides, I have an MC to an officer in the unit.

In the history of the corps of guides there was a photo of the officers, but the library would not let me copy it :-(

The citation mentions them using Kukris, but I thoughtthe Guides came from the western areas, nowdays pakistan?

[Tom Y]

Nope, I mean Indian Army corps of guides, I have an MC to an officer in the unit.

In the history of the corps of guides there was a photo of the officers, but the library would not let me copy it :-(

The citation mentions them using Kukris, but I thoughtthe Guides came from the western areas, nowdays pakistan?

From The History of the Kukri http://www.army.mod.uk/brigade_of_gurkhas/...kri_history.htm

"It was carried also by many other hill units, regular and irregular: Assam Rifle Regiments, Burma Military Police, the Garhwal and Kumaon Regiments. In the Burma campaign of World War those British troops who did not carry a machete carried a kukri, and nowadays the Singapore Police Force also carry them."

[peter monahan]

]

Chris

try Googling "Younghusband" - they were an Anglo-Indian family who served with the Guides for generations. (The founder of the unit was a Younghusband). MM Kaye, the English romance novelist was married to the last Younghusband to serve with the unit I believe. Anyway, that might get you some photos.

I have a privately published hisotry to the Corps, printed in India in 1885 and covering the period from their raising to 1880. Quite interesting, as much of it is a transcription of the Adjutants' records, full of the "small change of soldiering" as someone put it: patrol here, column there, promotions and leaves, etc.

Peter

[Chris Boonzaier]

Does anyone know what became of the corps of Guides?

I have not had a lot of time to pursue this topic, but hope to get to it soon...

(Thats what i thought a year ago as well....)

[Djedj]

Bonjour Chris,

Answer in short is "allocated to Pakistan's Army on partition".

A fuller one can be found along this interesting account of the Guides' history :

http://www.britishempire.co.uk/forces/army...rpsofguides.htm

Their digest on Regiments.org :

http://www.regiments.org/regiments/southas...nf/1903guid.htm

Salutations,

J?r?me

[Mike Dwyer]

One of my very, very favorite British empire officer's dress uniforms! Very elegant, but in an understated sort of way!

[Djedj]

From The Times (see "Frontier Force" in the allocation list) :

[Chris Boonzaier]

My interest centers around the following

I bought the group (military Cross, war medal, victory medal) with a copy of the london Gazette where the award is entered.

The entry reads..

"2nd Lt. Charles Winton, Indian army reserve of officers, attd to 1st Btln Queen Victorias Own (corps of Guides) (in Egypt)

For conspicuous gallentry and good leadership north of Arsuf on 13th July, 1918. He was in command of a daylight raid on two enemy strongpoints, and it was mainly due to his cooleness and leadership that the whole afair was carried out so successfully. He personally killed two enemy withthe bayonet"

It was an interesting citation and after having bought the group, I found the following information..

"On the 13th July a most successful daylight raid was carried out by Lt. Winton and a party of Guhrka volunteers, including Havildars Dhan Jit and Puran Bahadur, Naik Karma Dhoj and lance-NAik Hasta Ram. The objectives were 2 strog points in front of the right of the battalion line and 150-200 yards from it. The raid, which was carefully planned and rehearsed, took place at 1:00pm, the time of day when the Turks were usually most inactive. The raiders left our trenches and creeping down a Wadi in No mans land for about 100 yards then advanced across the open to their first objective. As the Gurkhas neared the enemys line they drew their kukris and leaping down upon the astonished Turks speedily cleared the trench, 7 Turks being killed there, while 5 prisoners and a MG were captured. The party then advanced and cleared the other strong poin, a seperate redoubt, 15 Turks in all being killed and 15 prisoners (5 wounded) being taken. The raiders then returned across no mans land, the operation having worked exactly to plan and having taken only 12 minutes from start to finish.

This raid was thus referered to in an English newspaper...

"decapitated with a Kukri.

A subaltern in charge of a party had an extraordinary experiance. He had stuck his bayonet into a Turk, but was unable to disengage owing to the narrowness of the Trench. Another Turk beyond began jabbing the butt end of his rifle into the ribs of the officer, and seemed likely to inflict an Injury, when the officer saw his assailants head leap from his shoulders, a Ghurka having dexterously decapitated him with his Kukri, which is an invaluable weapon at such close quarters"

This is the actual of Lt Winton during the raid and the Gurkha was Sepoy Mardani of the Guides.

[Chris Boonzaier]

Here is hiy MC....

[Ed_Haynes]

If he is serving with Gorkhas, he was clearly on detachment from the Guides. Now that (most of) my reference books are unpacked and back on the shelves, let me have a look-see.

Edited January 23, 2007 by Ed_Haynes

[Chris Boonzaier]

Hi Ed,

The info was from the history of the corps of guides, so it seems he was serving WITH the guides (which I find confusing, as the Kukri bit is in there) .....Havildar Dhan Jit was awarded the IDSM for the same raid... in the book there was a group photo off officers from 1918, 3 of whom were unidentified, but I think one or two where wearing MC ribbons.

Unfortunately it was not possible to copy this picture as the reading room was worried about copyright.

[Ed_Haynes]

The January 1919 Indian Army List is the starting point here, but it is rendered harder to use due to the fact that the folks who reprinted it blundered and neglected to reprint the last pages of the index. Guess where "Winton" falls. In packing, unpacking, and reshelving my xeroxed insert seems to have fallen out (though not many Indians show in that alphabet range, and that's mostly what I seek).

He is not shown either serving with or attached to any of the three battalions of Queen Victoria's Own Corps of Guides (Frontier Force) (Lumsden's) (pp. 964-770-1). The Guides did have an infantry half-company of Gorkhas (which I had forgotten about -- poor little Gorkhas), so some of this story might ring true.

He is not shown as in possesion of a MC (p. 1943). When was it gazetted? He does not readily pop up in the online London Gazette of legendry crankiness.

He does not show with any War Services. No surpsise, as this covers pre-war service mainly.

If any of these had provided any information, there'd be some hope of finding him in the long sections listing British officers by rank, but as they are not arranged alphabetically but by date of commission/rank.

The Guides (Infantry -- after 1922 the 5/12th Frontier Force Regiment) did serve in India, Mesopotamia, Egypt, and Palestine diuring WWI and one company went to France in 1914, attached to 57th Wilde's Rifles. (Gaylor, p. 171).

I don't think I have any wartime IALs (they are incredibly hard and expensive to find), but they are pretty spotty, with Jan 1919 being the benchmark. I can check them this summer in Delhi.

Sorry there's not better news and more puzzles than answers. Shall keep digging and looking.

[Chris Boonzaier]

Hi,

He is in the LG on the 1 Feb 1919

2nd Lt Charles Winton, I.A.R.O. attd 1st Q.V.O. Corps of Guides, Infy., I.A.. the action was in Egypt.

The CO recomended Winton for the MC and Dhan Jit for the IOM, but he recieved the IDSM

[Ed_Haynes]

Hi Ed,

The info was from the history of the corps of guides, so it seems he was serving WITH the guides (which I find confusing, as the Kukri bit is in there) .....Havildar Dhan Jit was awarded the IDSM for the same raid... in the book there was a group photo off officers from 1918, 3 of whom were unidentified, but I think one or two where wearing MC ribbons.

Unfortunately it was not possible to copy this picture as the reading room was worried about copyright.

As Alice said, "curiouser and curiouser". There is no "Dhan Jit" with a Guides IDSM before reorganization in 1922 (Chhina, p. 83). In fact, that seems a pretty garbled and incomplete name. There is a "Daljit Gurung) IDSM for the 2/5th GR in Mesopotamia (Chhina p. 158) but no other Gorkha or Garhwali IDSMs that are any closer to that name.

There is no "Winton" shown with the 5th GR in the Jan 1919 IAL (pp. 1617-22).

[Chris Boonzaier]

Hi,

the copy of the battalion war diary also has him listed as Dhan Jit

The raid carried out by "All volunteers & Gurkhas" according to the war diary. I assume this means all the volunteers were gurkhas, not that the raiding party consisted of Volunteers AND Gurkhas.

There is also a Havildar Pusan Bahadur listed as being on the raid.

[Ed_Haynes]

Hi,

He is in the LG on the 1 Feb 1919

2nd Lt Charles Winton, I.A.R.O. attd 1st Q.V.O. Corps of Guides, Infy., I.A.. the action was in Egypt.

The CO recomended Winton for the MC and Dhan Jit for the IOM, but he recieved the IDSM

OK, found him:

LG 31 Jan 1919, # 31158, p. 105

http://www.gazettes-online.co.uk/archiveVi...;selHonourType=

"2nd Lt. Charles Winton, I.A.R.O., attd. 1st Q.V.O. Corps of Guides, Infy., I.A. (EGYPT)

"For conspicuous gallantry and good leadership north of Arsup on 13th July, 1918. He was in command of a daylight raid on

two enemy strong points, and it was mainly due to his coolness and leadership that the whole affair was carried out so successfully. He personally killed two enemy with the bayonet."

And this'd be too late to be shown as a MC in the Jan 1919 IAL. Still strange he's not in that list. Yet he was just "attached" and not regimental, may have left by then. IAROs were throw-aways. I may have have to go line-by-line through some 100 pages of 9-point text to try to find him . . . .

Edited January 23, 2007 by Ed_Haynes

[Ed_Haynes]

Finally . . . .

Lieutenant Charles Winton, IARO, commissioned 8 August 1917, promoted to lieutenant 8 August 1918 (IAL Jan 1919 p. 540 sl. 85).

At least he existed.

[Chris Boonzaier]

At least he existed.

I think its a prerequisite for getting a medal ;-)

Can we assume he lived in India? Or could folks living in Britain also become I.A.R.O. ?

All the best

Chris

[Ed_Haynes]

I think its a prerequisite for getting a medal ;-)

But if he isn't in the Indian Army List, he doesn't REALLY exist.

Can we assume he lived in India? Or could folks living in Britain also become I.A.R.O. ?

All the best

Chris

Let me check. As I have scant collecting/research interest in medals to natives (of the British Isles), I'm not 100% sure. Though I think he would likely have been "India-domiciled" and simply was allowed in as an emergency commission to fill out depleted officer ranks. But he would have been British, not Anglo-India (or, in the 19th-century phrase "Eurasian").

[Harry Fecitt]

The 1st Bn Guides Infantry was defending ground named 'The Sisters' alongside 1st/8th Gurkhas, therefore it is likely that the Gurkha volunteers came from the 1st/8th.

However the Gurkha who beheaded Winter's adversary was Sepoy Mardani of the 1st Bn Guides Infantry.

1st Bn Guides Infantry had many Nepalese in its ranks, as did some other units, but they were all referred to as Gurkhas.

(Source: History of the Guides 1846-1922, (Anonymous writer), Naval & Military Press have reprinted it.

Harry