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Poulton Palmer

Nice grouping of an Oberstleutnant

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Hello gentlemen,

this weekend I came in the posession of this grouping by trading. I did have to let go of some beauties but got this in return.

It is a grouping consisting of:

* Offiiziersschirmmütze Gebirgsartillerie with edelweiß;

* nice medal bar;

* 2 spangen;

* all the documents the former wearer still had (many stuff was taken by occupation forces); but nonetheless a very impressive document grouping with Urkunden, maps, letters, photographs etc. Also an extensive biography of his life and army career.

My question to you is: take a look at the medal bar. You see the Prussian Kriegsverdienst medal on the ribbon of the EKII klasse. This is also written down on documents and if you can see on the close up of a picture where the owner wears it in austrian style.

I have never seen this before: prussian war merit on EKII ribbon.

Can someone explain this to me?

By the way, if my comrade who traded this with me, reads this: thanks I will take care of the grouping.

Greetings,

Poulton Palmer

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Here you see the bar worn in austrian way.

Also take a look at the breast eagle in combination with the collar (Austrian army???)

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Nice...NICE? That is a great group! Medal bar, ribbon bar and documents as well. Thanks for showing it.

I would like to hear more. What and where was he in WWI?

I have a question. I can't see it very well, but in the lower right photo. What is the lead (Austrian) medal there?

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Here you see the bar worn in austrian way.

Also take a look at the breast eagle in combination with the collar (Austrian army???)

Yes, it's the Bundesheer uniform, short time after the Anschluss.

A small remark: On the right picture the first medal is a Militärverdinstkreutz 3. class. But i can't see in the medal bar, nor on the later photos.

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Could you please show where the Prussian medal is mentioned in the papers? I'd love to read myself.

He's wearing the Militär-Ehrenzeichen 2nd class, which was an EM and NCO award to Prussians/Germans in the wars of 1864, 1866 and the later colonial conflicts. I'm not aware it was awarded in WW1.

The Prussian standard awards for KuK military are the EKs for officers and the Kriegerverdienstmedaille for EMs and NCOs. While the MEZ looks the same, its seize is about half(!) of it.

Was he an officer all over WW1, or did he start as an NCO ???

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Good evening gentlemen,

The officer in question is named: Herr josef FICK.

I have got quite a lot of papers from him but didn't have the time yet to read them extensively.

For now I will post a few pictures which will hopefully clarify a few questions.

greetings, poulton.

the first picture is a picture of an old(er) picture which came with the grouping.

The second one is a picture of a page which Herr Fick wrote himself (and signed each page) about his awards (for most of them I have Urkunden). This page is part of a 7 page report he himself wrote about his career etc.

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next picture gives a little overview of pictures and documents relating to Herr Fick.

Then 2 portrait pictures, where you can clearly see the Schirmmütze.

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last but not least, an overview of his promotions throughout the years. For 4/5 promotions I have seen original documents in the grouping.

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Hi gentlemen,

No reactions yet about the Prussian war merit medal on the EKII ribbon. I still don't understand this.

Here in short the war adventures of Herr Fick:

1. From Mobilmachung till end of november 1915: Batterieoffizier, Beobachter and Aufklärer with the 30,5 cm Mortar battery 8 off the Heavy art rgt 7:

* Until middle of feb 1915: westfront, belagerung off Namur, Maubeuge, Antwerp, Stellungskämpfe in Flandern (ypres, Langemark etc);

* until middle of april 1915: ostfront, battle of Ossowiec in northern russ. Poland in the 8 german army;

* mai until september 1915: ostfront, attack in galizien and russ. poland (breakthrough at Gorlice, tarnow, Jaroslau, reconquer of Przemysl and lemberg, fighting at lublin till brest-litowsk in the 11th german army);

* till nov 1915: ostfront, fighting nordostlich Brody in the 2. austrian army.

2. end november 1915 till april 1916: instruktionsoffizier at the ersatz abteilung of the heavy art rgt 7 in Vienna;

3. April 1916 until 1 okt 1916: batterie offizier, beobachter and aufklärer, later first offizier and selbst. Halbbatteriekommandant at the 30,5 cm mortar battery 11 (later nr 6) of the heavy art rgt 7 at the italian front:

* mai until middle sept 1916: Offensive against italy: etschtal, breakthrough at Rovereto, attack fighting at Korny zugna, Campoluzzo, arsiero, Pryafora, Novegno plateau, Passubio;

* 18/9/1916 - 14/10/1916: septmeberkämpfe in Fleimstal (Cauriol etc) then with 2 halbbattery at the Pustertalfront, fighting at Scluderbach and ruffredo, and fighting in Marmolatarea (fassatal);

* 15/10/1916 - 8/11/1916: Fighting in the Fleimstal (Cauriol, Cardinal, Busa Alta etc);

* 9/11/1916 - 15/2/1917: fighting and trenchwarfare at the high ground of the 7 gemeinden under command of the 6 and 22 Inf div;

* 20/2/1917 - 5/6/1917: with the 1 halbbattery fighting and trenchwarfare in area Borcola and Passubio etc;

* 8/6/1917 - 1/8/1917: defense of italian July iffensive at the 7 gemeinden and trenchwarfare at the spot;

* 3/8/1917 - 10/10/1917: with the 2 halbbattery: trenchwarfare in area Borcola (Monte Majo, Passubio etc)

* 20/10/1917 - 21/04/1918: Isonzo offensive: breakthrough at Flitsch, attack at the Neveasaddle, and attack fighting between Piave and Brenta (monte Pertica, asolone, caprile etc, finally trenchwarfare, both sides of the Brenta);

* 22/4/1918 - 1/10/1918: Trenchwarfare, than juni offensive and after that defensive battles on the high ground of the 7 gemeinden (col del rosso, monte di Valbella etc)

* 3-10/1918 - 15/10/1918: teacher in Säbelchargenkurs Medea nearby Cormons

* 16/10/1918 - 1/11/1918: (Zusammenbruch) Kommandant of the positions art gruppe "Brian" in the area Caorle at the Piave. trenchwarfare and defensive fighting at the Italian breakthrough.

I stop now. Herr Fick continued his military career also in WWII. maybe I will tell you later if interested.

greetings,

poulton palmer

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Thanks! He wasn't an officer for the 1st year of WW1, so I assume he received the Prussian Kriegerverdienstmedaille in this time. As an officer, he should have received the EK2.

My personal assumption: he later bought a Zweitstück (wearers copy - seems to be one on the bar) of the Prussian Militär-Ehrenzeichen 2nd class to replace the tiny Kriegerverdienstmedaille.

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Thanks for the input Sascha,

I think I finally get it now:

Herr Fick received the Kriegsverdienstmedaille 2. Klasse in Silber "Kriegs Verdienst" (see first picture of back).

Normally, according to Detlev Niemann this type only existst in a 25 mm medal. The one on the Spange is a 39 mm medal. (see second picture out of the book of DN). So Herr Fick must have upgraded it himself by buying a replacement as you assume. Ok, this sounds plausible to me, only I ask myself:

* why should an officer of this status do this? He has medals and status enough? This Kriegsverdienstmedaille 2. Klasse in Silber "Kriegs Verdienst" in this 39 mm versionlooks very much like the kriegsverdienstmedaille 1. Klasse in Silber (only difference is the back I think, reading "Krieger Verdienst". This seems a little bit betrügerisch to me (hope you understand what I mean).

Third picture also out of DN book: a picture of a Spange with also a Kriegsverdienstmedal in it.

Hope I get feedback.

Greetings,

Poulton Palmer

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You're confusing three totally different medals. Niemann refers to the Kriegerverdienstmedaille of the Reich only, a four classed medal for black soldiers in the colonies.

The Prussian medal an Austrian EM or NCO would have received in WW1 is the Prussian(!) Kriegerverdienstmedaille, which looks the same like the lowest class of the medals in Niemann catalogue. But: one is a one-classed Prussian award, the other one the lowest grade of a four classed award by the Reich.

The big medal with "WR" cypher is the Prussian Militär-Ehrenzeichen 2nd class. Something totally different, a Prussia award awarded in the wars of 1864 and 1866, and to the white soldiers fighting in the colonies.

Ficker seems top wear the last one to replace/upgrade his Prussian Kriegerverdienstmedaille.

Would someone please chime in, if I'm wrong in anything?

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I agree with sashaw, in ww1 the kuk nco have received only the little kriegerverdienstmed.

On the beginning of the war some of the first kuk soldiers received with the golden bravery medal also a iron cross second class from the german,

but after a order of the war ministery all the iron cross were changed to kriegerverdienstmed.

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