Bundesrepublik Tailored Majors Tunic.

[SteveL]

This is the last of Retired Bundeswehr veteran Hans-Jurgen Pohl tunics that I have aquired.....I have already shown his Gala uniform and an earlier dated Srvice uniform, I will let Herr Pohl in his own words describe this tunic to you......"I have worn the tunic while being a Major in the staff of the I. (German) Korps in Münster. This NATO-Korps was till 1990 the largest Army Corps with its round about 108 000 Soldiers. We had to lead 5 Divisions in the northern part of Germany during peace time. This corps does no longer exist and has changed to the German/Netherlands Corps with its staff still in Münster but not comparable with the former German Corps.

You see this tunic tailored by a light pastel shade of gray fabric. The weapons colour is pink – German Panzer troops. On the left sleeve there is the badge of the I. (German) Korps. On the right breast pocket the see the symbol of the staff in Münster. The badge and the Korps-symbol are now “history” while the tunic – tailored in 1990 – is still current and worn by Panzer-officers even today".

Prost ! Steve.

http://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_04_2012/post-7645-0-89494800-1334334835.jpghttp://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_04_2012/post-7645-0-48580300-1334334881.jpghttp://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_04_2012/post-7645-0-31871500-1334334914.jpghttp://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_04_2012/post-7645-0-27109900-1334334952.jpg

[Gordon Craig]

SteveL,

Nice tunic and it appears that his pass to the building he worked in is attached to the left breast pocket. True? I think that Herr Pohl's memory may be a bit off here. The collar tabs and shoulder boards on this tunic are not pink for a panzer officer. They appear to be the boards and collar tabs for an officer on the General Staff which would make sense.

Regards,

Gordon

[speedytop]

Hi,

in my opinion it is not Panzertruppe and not Generalstab.

The collar tab of a "Generalstabsoffizier" is in another colour in in another design.

I think, that we see here an Artillerie tunic.

It is the same here:

http://gmic.co.uk/in...mit-fangschnur/

This is definitely a Panzer tunic:

http://gmic.co.uk/in...-uniform-named/

For comparison:

Steve, can you please show better pictures ot the different collar tabs,in the same light conditions?

Based on your pictures I see here Artillerie Panzer and Artillerie:

Uwe

[Guest talltom]

Hi,

in my opinion it is not Panzertruppe and not Generalstab.

The collar tab of a "Generalstabsoffizier" is in another colour in in another design.

I think, that we see here an Artillerie tunic.

It is the same here:

http://gmic.co.uk/in...mit-fangschnur/

This is definitely a Panzer tunic:

http://gmic.co.uk/in...-uniform-named/

For comparison:

Steve, can you please show better pictures ot the different collar tabs,in the same light conditions?

Based on your pictures I see here Artillerie Panzer and Artillerie:

Uwe

uwe good observations personally i think the first one is panzer private purchase modern 2nd is panzer private purchase early and then artillery.

cheers

tom

Edited April 15, 2012 by talltom

[Guest talltom]

my two panzer jackets to illustrate the different colours for the ages on the left modern panzer on the right 1961 panzer

[SteveL]

Uwe, Gordon......Herr Pohl served up to his appointment in 1st Corps in Panzerbrigade 8, since joining the BW in 1968. It is true that the tunics display different shades of pink on the collar patches and shoulder boards.....from a light pink through to a darker pink,as the Americans would say, baby pink through to hot pink....I shall speak to Hans-Jurgen and check to see if he ever served within an Artillery battalion within Panzerbrigade 8.

Prost ! Steve.

[Gordon Craig]

Uwe,

OOPS. Not enough coffee this morning. I should know better than that. My applogies for the error.

Steve,

The collar tabs and the boards look to be the same colour of red on my screen and not even close to panzer. Uwe's picture of the two different colours; panzer pink and artillery red, shows this very well. It will be interesting to hear what the former owner has to say. The breast hanger certainly appears to be the correct one. Perhaps you could post a picture of the arm badge as well.

Talltom,

I don't agree to your comment on the different shades of pink for panzer. Panzer pink was never even close to red regardless of what year it was worn in. There are however several different shades of red for different branches but they are not close to panzer pink.

Regards,

Gordon

[SteveL]

For the uninitiated.......

Prost ! Steve.

[SteveL]

Gordon...arm shield on Majors tunic...... 1st Corps based at Munster H.Q.(photograph) also shown correct breast hanger.

http://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_04_2012/post-7645-0-50425900-1334554569.jpghttp://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_04_2012/post-7645-0-09577800-1334554592.jpghttp://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_04_2012/post-7645-0-37976400-1334554653.jpg

As far as the anomilies with "Rosa" are concerned, I am sure Herr Pohl is going to inform me he was Panzer through and through, but we shall see..... one makers interpretation of Panzer pink can be different than another's ?....all these tunics were made by different civilian tailors.

Prost ! Steve.

Edited April 16, 2012 by SteveL

[Gordon Craig]

Steve,

You are correct that makers can differ slightly in what they make as "panzer pink" but only to a minor degree. Manufacturerers are all supplied with a sealed patterns that they are to use as an example for their production. The Technnische Lieferbingungen (TL) produced by the Bundesampt fur Wehrtechnik und Beschaffung gives very explicite directions for everything that a supplier must adhere to when making something for the Bundeswehr. Your illustration above is only good for indicating that different colours are used for different arms of the service. As a colour reference it has no relationship to the actual colours worn.

You are incorrect in you statement that "all of these tunics were made by different tailors". They were in fact allmost all supplied by KKBw. Officers could purchase their own tunics but it was not the norm.

Regards,

Gordon

[Gordon Craig]

Gentlemen,

Another illustration of artillery red and panzer pink for your reference.

Regards,

Gordon

[speedytop]

Steve.

once more, Steve, can you please show better pictures ot the 3 different collar tabs,in the same light conditions?

In your Waffenfarben sheet the colours for ABC-Abwehrtruppe and Heeresflugabwehrtruppe are definitely not correct.

Gordon,

"They were in fact almost all supplied by KKBw."

This is not correct, see in Post 1 "Franz Kuhnert Hannover". I bought my first jacket direct at Kuhnert in Hannover. Only the invoice was paid from my KKBw account.

Therefore it could be correct, that "all of these tunics were made by different tailors".

Uwe

[SteveL]

Steve,You are incorrect in you statement that "all of these tunics were made by different tailors". They were in fact allmost all supplied by KKBw. Officers could purchase their own tunics but it was not the norm.Regards,Gordon

Sorry Gordon your statement is wrong, not all Officers tunics were supplied by the KKBw as Uwe concurs......I have several private purchase tunics with civilian tailor labels.....Uwe, I shall provide photographs taken in daylight, outside, as I feel that these would be better in natural light.......I am still awaiting a reply from Hans-Jurgen.

Prost ! Steve.

[Gordon Craig]

Gentlemen,

To take a step back here. First of all, we are not questioning the fact that Herr Pohl served as a Panzer officer. Just if the collar tabs that are shown on this tunic, if seen by an person unknown to Herr Pohl, would judge him to be an artillery officer or a panzer officer. As for who issued tunics, I only have one private purchase tunic in my collection of approximately40 plus Bundeswehr tunics dating from the late 50s on. Obviously, from our individual collections we have drawn different conclusions. The fact that Uwe was issued a tunic made by a tailor and that it was paid for from his KKWb account only speaks to the issuing of one tunic. My early tunics are marked KKW and the later ones KKWb until the time KKWb stopped issuing them. This is for tunics from the rank of private to General officer. Obvioulsy the topic of who actually issued officers tunics needs more research

Regards,

Gordon

[SteveL]

Gentlemen, To take a step back here. First of all, we are not questioning the fact that Herr Pohl served as a Panzer officer. Regards,Gordon

Thanks for your reply Gordon...I unaware of accusing you or anyone else of questioning Hans-Jurgens statement, this is a enjoyable debate, which I am sure all of us can learn from. I however I have just spent time photographing these tunics collar patches and shoulder straps, (in all types of light !) I am unhappy with the outcome, it is think my camara is at fault here, it is a digital "Agfa" of the tourist type, upon reflection it is not producing the correct colour tones, they do appear to be red on film, in hand they are more (to me) pink, although not the more standard Rosa shown the earliest tunic....my son has a much more sophisticated camara (and more expensive !) I shall, when he appears, ask him his advice and see if we can get "in hand" type photographs....

Prost ! Steve.

[speedytop]

Gordon,

"The fact that Uwe was issued a tunic made by a tailor and that it was paid for from his KKBw account only speaks to the issuing of one tunic."

There had been several tailors like Franz Kuhnert, Traugott Rahne, Brodersen and others, in Hannover, Munich and in other locations. Please see Kunstwadl page 48/49.

There was no issue. I ordered it in Hannover and I paid for it in Hannover, direct at the shop of Franz Kuhnert. The KKBw had nothing to do with that! And it was my free choice, to present the invoice to the KKBw. I must not do that. It could be complete without the KKBw!

Look at all the different colours of Army uniforms, especially for the "Aufklärer". You could not buy such a light grey jacket at the KKBw. Later it changed, and several Aufklärer bought very dark grey jackets, but not from the KKBw.

Uwe

[SteveL]

Look at all the different colours of Army uniforms, especially for the "Aufklärer". You could not buy such a light grey jacket at the KKBw. Later it changed, and several Aufklärer bought very dark grey jackets, but not from the KKBw.Uwe

Uwe...luck would have it, I have just purchased an early "Aufklarer" uniform from Germany, it is on its way as we speak, a very light grey in colour, (Alter Art in Hellgrau) and bearing a tailors label for "Georg Schweda".....it has embroidered rank stars, and is named to a Hauptman Graf von Saurma, I will post when it arrives.....I am doing research with regards to the name.

Prost ! Steve.

Edited April 16, 2012 by SteveL

[SteveL]

Gordon, Uwe....I have Hans-Jurgens reply....I have copied and pasted straight from my e-mail account.....straight from the horses mouth, so to speak..... "Thank you for question. You are right. Even we had problems to differentiate between the colour for Artillery and Panzer (Waffenfarben). As you said, for Artillery it is red (hoch rot) and for Panzer rosa . I can assure you that I have always been a Panzer Officer. Because we (Officers) knew that the different of shades rosa pink depending from the origin of our tunics, we preferred the tailor-made tunics from the tailors Kuhnert andRahne in Hannover . They had their typical lighter rosa for Kragenspiegel and Schulterklappen, against which the tunics for Officers and Sergeants for profession from the Bundeswehr Kleiderkasse and the tunics for drafts and Sergeants from theKleiderkammer have a more dark red, similar to the Artillery.

I still have the badges you asked for. I can send them to you if you want. If you still have the photo, please have a look on it. You will see four pairs of Kragenspiegel. The pairs left and right are light rosa . I suppose from Kuhnert or Rahne. The second pair on the right is also Panzer-rosa, but Kleiderkammer for drafts-tunics. The second pair on the left is goldgelb – Panzeraufklärer. If you need further declarations concerning the badges, please ask me."

There is nothing more I can add, other than post some good photographs of the different shades....it will be Thursday when my son with his fancy camera can come and photograph the items. But I am inclined to think we have the answer here, that private purchase tunics can and were tailored with varying shades of Rosa pink.....as opposed to the standardised "Rosa" at the KKBw.

Prost ! Steve.

Edited April 17, 2012 by SteveL

[Gordon Craig]

Steve,

Thanks for posting the response from Hans-Jurgens. It is not unknown for tailors to use colours of waffenfarbe that do not match those published by the BW. Makes things all that more difficult, and therefore intersting? for us collectors.

Regards,

Gordon

[Paul R]

Thank you all for this very informational thread. I have leard a lot from this discussion.

[SteveL]

Gentlemen...received this package of insignia from Hans-Jürgen this morning...a couple of nice hand embroidered arm shields, note the arm of colour on the shoulder straps/collar patches...the Aufklarung patches are from his father-in-law.....

Prost ! Steve.

Edited April 23, 2012 by SteveL

[Paul R]

What are the red cords on the OberstLtn shoulder slides?

[SteveL]

Paul, a slip on piece of coloured litzen to show arm of service, i.e. pink for Panzer, yellow for signals etc....usually, but not always, worn slipped over shoulder rank slides on combat shirt jackets....I have even seen them slipped through the air vent grommets on field caps ! They are Pink on these slip ons.

Prost ! Steve.

[SteveL]

Paul, here is the litzen being worn on a 96' Flecktarn combat jacket.....golden yellow for "Panzer-aufklarungstruppe".

Prost ! Steve.

[Paul R]

I never knew that!! Cool stuff.