JapanX Posted January 17, 2013 Posted January 17, 2013 I immediattely checked my two Capital Rehabilitation medals; one the regular issue for men and one with the bow ribbon for women. Both have the M mark. Thank you Pieter! M as expected ... I am quite sure that our colleagues will get the same result Regards, Nick
fukuoka Posted January 17, 2013 Posted January 17, 2013 (edited) 35,000 seems like a good figure, just on the surface. How many do you see on auction each month? 5? 10? I think the higher number is possible--10 each month on ebay. And then say you watch the auctions for 10 years, and if the numbers remained constant, you would have seen 1,200 different medals (not even thinking about medals that get re-circulated in the collecting field). That means you still would have seen only a small percentage of the actual medals minted. Now of course, I don't think anyone has written down all the auctions for the last 10 years, but I don't think you are seeing 10 of these medals for sale every month, are you? We have to think of worldwide sales, I know, but still... Even if you double the numbers (20 each month) you get a small fraction of 35,000. The source I have is the 100 years of the Decoration Bureau records. Only the primary documents have been transcribed, so there is no summary or commentary. That being said, 35,000 medals were budgeted on January 18, 1930. The raw materials for each medal cost 1,000 yen each, for a total of 35,000 yen. The minting costs (total, not including the raw materials) were 52,500 yen. The cases for that number of medals cost 200 yen each--total of 7,000 yen. The ribbons cost 300 yen each. The paper wraps were 90 yen each. What excellent, trivial information! Prized by only a few... perhaps even less than a few. Edited January 17, 2013 by fukuoka
Gensui Posted January 17, 2013 Author Posted January 17, 2013 (edited) Absolutely stunning information! Thank your for sharing it! Edited January 17, 2013 by Gensui
JapanX Posted January 17, 2013 Posted January 17, 2013 Now of course, I don't think anyone has written down all the auctions for the last 10 years, but I don't think you are seeing 10 of these medals for sale every month, are you? We have to think of worldwide sales, I know, but still... Even if you double the numbers (20 each month) you get a small fraction of 35,000. Rich, to judge the frequency of occurrence of this medal it will be really nice to get the second coordinate (from the same book ) For example the number of minted Korea Census medals. 35000... Hmmm... For example there were 32247 Merit medals on Blue Ribbon issued up to 1993. When I compare the "frequency" of this blue merit medal and rehabilitation medal "frequency" I've got the feeling that the later is more common. No? Of course all these my "feelings" are very very subjective And on the other hand we have an official (!) publication The source I have is the 100 years of the Decoration Bureau records. Only the primary documents have been transcribed, so there is no summary or commentary. That being said, 35,000 medals were budgeted on January 18, 1930. The raw materials for each medal cost 1,000 yen each, for a total of 35,000 yen. The minting costs (total, not including the raw materials) were 52,500 yen. The cases for that number of medals cost 200 yen each--total of 7,000 yen. The ribbons cost 300 yen each. The paper wraps were 90 yen each. Yes, this is very interesting info and figures! Thanks Prized by only a few... perhaps even less than a few. Looks like you are having doubts about me Cheers, Nick
fukuoka Posted January 17, 2013 Posted January 17, 2013 Comparing with the Blue Ribbon Medal is not exactly fair. Japanese people, being extraordinarily protective of privacy (personal opinion based on 20 years of residence), do not feel as comfortable selling named items on the market as they do about unnamed. Especially when they have to do with merit awards. In my opinion, that is why the Medal of Honor award documents so rarely hit the market--they contain a large amount of personal info. and the Blue medals have individual names engraved on the reverse. So while the numbers minted are similar, the number you see is smaller. Although the above is conjecture based on anecdotal evidence, I feel strong about it. Numbers for the Korean Census medal are not in the documents I have, sorry to say. I wish they gave numbers for each medal, but not every document was included in the collection. However, I can give you the number ordered for the Boxer Rebellion War Dispatch Medal: 54,000.
JapanX Posted January 17, 2013 Posted January 17, 2013 Numbers for the Korean Census medal are not in the documents I have, sorry to say. I wish they gave numbers for each medal, but not every document was included in the collection. However, I can give you the number ordered for the Boxer Rebellion War Dispatch Medal: 54,000. Super cool info Rich!!! So the "Boxers" dominates "Rehabilitation" in propotion 1,7 to 1 . Is that really possible?! According to the Decoration Bureau the answer is yes I wonder if there will be a tremendous increase in prices of Rehabilitation medals after this thread
fukuoka Posted January 17, 2013 Posted January 17, 2013 I am sure the well-known sellers on ebay will use this info (without acknowledgement) to build up their item descriptions. 'On the shoulders of giants' as they say. (Of course, I have to acknowledge that I am always standing on shoulders as well...)
fukuoka Posted January 17, 2013 Posted January 17, 2013 (edited) double-posted, sorry Edited January 17, 2013 by fukuoka
Gensui Posted January 17, 2013 Author Posted January 17, 2013 I wonder if there will be a tremendous increase in prices of Rehabilitation medals after this thread I wash my hands on it!
Gensui Posted January 17, 2013 Author Posted January 17, 2013 (edited) So the "Boxers" dominates "Rehabilitation" in propotion 1,7 to 1 . Is that really possible?! According to the Decoration Bureau the answer is yes Nick, I don't think we can use numbers of PRODUCED medals to numbers of (really) AWARDED medals and in argumentum e contrario, get back to the ratio. Depending on the sources (e.g. Susanne KUSS: 'Deutsches Militär auf kolonialen Kriegsschauplätzen[...]', pp. 58-59), number of Japanese soldiers during the Boxer Rebellion varies from 17,000 to 22,000 men. This does not include any "non-military persons", of course. How should we "justify" 54,000 (produced? or awarded?) medals? Edited January 17, 2013 by Gensui
fukuoka Posted January 17, 2013 Posted January 17, 2013 The Rescript states that the medals were to be awarded to 1. those who participated in battle during this war 2. others who were in the military and stationed in the area during this war 3. those who were attached to the military forces in some way and performed work for the Army and Navy in the area 4. those who cared for those wounded in the conflict [i.e., the caregivers must have been in the area, too] 5. those who belonged to a unit that served in the conflict 6. those who served on transport vehicles and vessels that aided during and after the conflict 7. members of the foreign allied forces who also participated in the battle That's a lot of people.
JapanX Posted January 17, 2013 Posted January 17, 2013 'On the shoulders of giants' as they say. (Of course, I have to acknowledge that I am always standing on shoulders as well...) Very metaphorical!
JapanX Posted January 17, 2013 Posted January 17, 2013 (edited) Nick, I don't think we can use numbers of PRODUCED medals to numbers of (really) AWARDED medals and in argumentum e contrario, get back to the ratio.Depending on the sources (e.g. Susanne KUSS: 'Deutsches Militär auf kolonialen Kriegsschauplätzen[...]', pp. 58-59), number of Japanese soldiers during the Boxer Rebellion varies from 17,000 to 22,000 men. This does not include any "non-military persons", of course. How should we "justify" 54,000 (produced? or awarded?) medals? Of course not all medals were awarded. That`s why we observe from time to time mint "Boxers" and very often mint "Rehabilitations" Actually practically all "Rehabilitations" are cased and in mint condition Edited January 17, 2013 by JapanX
JapanX Posted January 17, 2013 Posted January 17, 2013 A small interlude. Promised photos of the doc. Awarded to Ministry of Communications Secretary Shima. The document is dated May 1, 1931
Dieter3 Posted January 17, 2013 Posted January 17, 2013 Does anyone know what the difference is of the wrap with Showa 6th year, 2-gatsu (February) and Showa 7th year 3-gatsu (March). Was the later issue to award claims for the medal that came in later? Pieter Is there a Showa 7th Year Wrapper? I haven't seen that one, just 5th and 6th. I'll keep my eyes open! I haven't closely compared the 5th and 6th year wrappers. I think they simply minted and awarded them for several years. Same story with Showa medals. As far as I remember they minted and awarded them in 1928, 1929 and 1930. Seems correct so far! I've seen the 3 years you mention, not sure what the final month of production is. Nick, you are right, I immediattely checked my two Capital Rehabilitation medals; one the regular issue for men and one with the bow ribbon for women. Both have the M mark. Pieter Pieter - do you have a case for the woman's award? I'm interested to know if the woman's bow was official or not, or if these were custom-made. 35,000 seems like a good figure, just on the surface. How many do you see on auction each month? 5? 10? I think the higher number is possible--10 each month on ebay. And then say you watch the auctions for 10 years, and if the numbers remained constant, you would have seen 1,200 different medals (not even thinking about medals that get re-circulated in the collecting field). That means you still would have seen only a small percentage of the actual medals minted. Now of course, I don't think anyone has written down all the auctions for the last 10 years, but I don't think you are seeing 10 of these medals for sale every month, are you? We have to think of worldwide sales, I know, but still... Even if you double the numbers (20 each month) you get a small fraction of 35,000. The source I have is the 100 years of the Decoration Bureau records. Only the primary documents have been transcribed, so there is no summary or commentary. That being said, 35,000 medals were budgeted on January 18, 1930. The raw materials for each medal cost 1,000 yen each, for a total of 35,000 yen. The minting costs (total, not including the raw materials) were 52,500 yen. The cases for that number of medals cost 200 yen each--total of 7,000 yen. The ribbons cost 300 yen each. The paper wraps were 90 yen each. What excellent, trivial information! Prized by only a few... perhaps even less than a few. Fascinating data! So, roughly between May of 2009 thru Septmeber of 2011 - a total of 60 combined medals on eBay and Yahoo! Japan. I'm sure I missed some. Roughly 2 medals month. I think a safe number would be 3-5. 10 seems high! Gotta figure too a number of these medals have probably been destroyed by various means, including war, etc. Who knows how many though. Rich, I think the data you are finding is AWESOME. This is what I love about the hobby, almost as much as the medals themselves!
pieter1012 Posted January 17, 2013 Posted January 17, 2013 Dieter, yes there is also a Showa 7, 3-gatsu wrapper; I have one. Except for the date everything is the same as for the other ones. The women's issue of the medal is official, and mine comes with the typical square case for women. I will bother Nick again and send him tomorrow some pictures of it to post here, since I still don't know how to do that. Pieter
JapanX Posted January 17, 2013 Posted January 17, 2013 I will bother Nick again and send him tomorrow some pictures of it to post here, since I still don't know how to do that. ... and I'll post them by Satuday P.S. Undoubtedly there was an official woman's version of this medal.
Dieter3 Posted January 18, 2013 Posted January 18, 2013 Dieter, yes there is also a Showa 7, 3-gatsu wrapper; I have one. Except for the date everything is the same as for the other ones. The women's issue of the medal is official, and mine comes with the typical square case for women. I will bother Nick again and send him tomorrow some pictures of it to post here, since I still don't know how to do that. Pieter Niiiice!!! Looking forward to seeing it! I'm wondering - there must not have been too many medals for Showa 7? I've never seen one. Seen lots of Showa 5 wrappers. ... and I'll post them by Satuday P.S. Undoubtedly there was an official woman's version of this medal. Well, not sure. I've never seen one for sale or in photos! But if Pieter has a case for one, I think that lends it credibility. I'd be more iffy if it was simply a medal on a woman's bow!
JapanX Posted January 18, 2013 Posted January 18, 2013 (edited) Well, not sure.Really?! We don't trust to anyone! I've never seen one for sale or in photos!Well, check the Rich site and I bet you'll see one in the section devoted to this medal. There were a couple of them at YJ, so he definitely should have the pictures :whistle: Edited January 18, 2013 by JapanX
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