Poulton Palmer Posted January 16, 2013 Share Posted January 16, 2013 (edited) Hello gentlemen, I can acquire this document from Feldflieger Abteilung 7. Any chance this is genuine? I have read that FFA 7 was transformed in 1917 in Fliegerabteilung (FA) 7. And that it was a Bavarian unit. I find it odd that on the document still states FFA 7. Possible explanations?: * the award was earned months back when the unit was still named FFA 7; * it is a mistake; * the doc is fake. The signature of von Hoeppner is a facsimile signature. I can't find much about FFA 7, let alone names of pilots who served with this unit. I also can't find any pictures of documents for the pilot's badge. Greetings from Flanders, Poulton Tomorrow I will post bigger pics! Edited January 16, 2013 by Poulton Palmer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaba1914 Posted January 16, 2013 Share Posted January 16, 2013 It is impossible to say something because the pictures are much to small. Sorry. The FFA 7 was formed as many units at outbreak of war on Aug. 1914. The first commander was Hptm Grade. The unit was renamed to FA 7 on 11.01.1917. FFA 7 / FA 7 was not a bavarian unit. There was another FFA 7b which was a bavarian formation. It is not unussual to find the old name of the unit on a document dated after the rename. How is the name of the pilot? Regards Alex Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaba1914 Posted January 16, 2013 Share Posted January 16, 2013 Here some example of documents for the pilot badge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poulton Palmer Posted January 17, 2013 Author Share Posted January 17, 2013 Wow Jaba, thanks for your data! I have better pictures now: One thing that direct caughts the attention is absence of a stamp of the unit of somekind. Good to know it is not an Bavarian unit. Because with the document comes the award also: a Prussian style Flugzeugführer Abzeichen. Although I am a dummy in these awards I will post pictures of it in a new thread and try to give my opinion about the piece. Hopefully "experts" will react and dummies like me can learn from this. Greetings Poulton. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Boonzaier Posted January 17, 2013 Share Posted January 17, 2013 Hi were there prewar documents for qualified pilots or was this a wartime thing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaba1914 Posted January 17, 2013 Share Posted January 17, 2013 @Chris Of course were there prewar documents for qualified pilots and for the pilot badge. @Poulton It seems this document was directly Hand out from KoGenLuft and it has no Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaba1914 Posted January 17, 2013 Share Posted January 17, 2013 (edited) @Chris Of course were there prewar documents for qualified pilots and for the pilot badge. Prewar there were awards document and during the war there were more preliminary documents. @Poulton It seems this document was directly hand out from KoGenLuft and it has no Unit stamp and sign. This is unussual and i have to check if i ever seen a document like this. Why at this time the Unit is still called FFA 7 it is unknown. Regards Alex Edited January 17, 2013 by jaba1914 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poulton Palmer Posted January 17, 2013 Author Share Posted January 17, 2013 It seems this document was directly hand out from KoGenLuft and it has no Unit stamp and sign. This is unussual and i have to check if i ever seen a document like this. Why at this time the Unit is still called FFA 7 it is unknown. Can you check this? I am amazed. I have seen there is a Lt d.R. Wünsche, but he served with another Abteilung. Is there any chance of finding names of pilots of the unit F(F)A?? MfG, Poulton Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaba1914 Posted January 20, 2013 Share Posted January 20, 2013 I checked my archive and I don't have a document like this. I'm not sure if this is a original document. Can we see the badge that came with this document? Regards Alex Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Boonzaier Posted January 20, 2013 Share Posted January 20, 2013 Hi, I have the documents to a German Artilleryman who qualified as a pilot in 1913, I dont think as a military pilot. The pilot document is not there, just some letters from 1937 saying they could not reissue the doc, and so they sent an abschrift... How did that work pre WW1? Was there seperate military and civilian pilot training? Or was it all same-same? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaba1914 Posted January 20, 2013 Share Posted January 20, 2013 Pre war most training facilitates were civilian. Most of the military personal was trained in civilian facilities. The first step of an military pilot training was the pilot licence of the FAI then a further military training. Regards Alex Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poulton Palmer Posted January 20, 2013 Author Share Posted January 20, 2013 Hi Alex, thanks for your efforts. Maybe it is not original or maybe an after-war Abschrift? It looks old though. I think everything stands or falls with the answer if there ever has been an Unteroffizier Wünsche in F(F)A 7. Are there any sources anyone can recommend?? Greetings, Poulton Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaba1914 Posted January 20, 2013 Share Posted January 20, 2013 (edited) I don't have an Uffz Wünsche at the FA 7. There are no literature published about the personal of this unit. Sorry. There is no evidence that this document is post war. I don't think that this is an post war Abschrift. The unit of KoGenLuft was disbanded after the war, so i don't think that hi signed documents long after the war. Regards Alex Edited January 20, 2013 by jaba1914 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Boonzaier Posted January 20, 2013 Share Posted January 20, 2013 Here you go.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Boonzaier Posted January 20, 2013 Share Posted January 20, 2013 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Boonzaier Posted January 20, 2013 Share Posted January 20, 2013 q Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Boonzaier Posted January 20, 2013 Share Posted January 20, 2013 w Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poulton Palmer Posted January 21, 2013 Author Share Posted January 21, 2013 @ Chris, where do you keep finding these things! This is a post-war Abschrift for a pre-war earned Flugzeugführer abzeichen? Nice. @ Alex: "I don't have an Uffz Wünsche at the FA 7. There are no literature published about the personal of this unit. Sorry." ==> that is a pity. "The unit of KoGenLuft was disbanded after the war, so i don't think that hi signed documents long after the war." : ==> I agree. Conclusion?: * not original; * original but for whatever reason without stamp. Without conclusive personell data on that unit not trace-able. To me the doc looks old enough for a period document. I ask myself: if it is a fake doc, why did the producer of the fake-doc choose only a Unteroffizier and not a Leutnant or ObLtn. ? Maybe the faker was that clever to know that for officers there are Ranglisten and so on, therefore are easier to check maybe??? But if so, he could also pick a name from the Unit that is known and so raising the market value of the doc etc. Sorry, I am wondering off...I'd better quit. Thanks for your input. Greetings, Poulton Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaba1914 Posted January 21, 2013 Share Posted January 21, 2013 Hi Poulton, If you like the document that is OK. I have some doubts and I don't like the document and would Not Buy this. I Seen many documents but noone like this. Maybe it is ok, but for me it doesn't looks like. It is not hard to fake those documents. Look at the documents for the kampfwagen badge in eBay. When I saw the badge, witch is a certain fake and without further documentation I would not spend money for it. Regards Alex Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaba1914 Posted January 21, 2013 Share Posted January 21, 2013 @Chris Vary nices papers. It seems that he request a document for his prewar pilot licence. Maybe he lost the document. Regards Alex Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poulton Palmer Posted January 21, 2013 Author Share Posted January 21, 2013 I have some doubts and I don't like the document and would Not Buy this. I Seen many documents but noone like this. Maybe it is ok, but for me it doesn't looks like. It is not hard to fake those documents. Hallo Alex, I understand off course. But look at this doc please, is quite similar, and for as far as I can see without stamp also: http://www.hermann-historica.de/db2_de/onlinekatalogeneu.html Or when the link doesn't work: 65. Auktion, Losnr. 4153. Greetings, Poulton Palmer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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