Is this the Queen's South Africa medal?

[Kvart]

Gentlemen,

This is a picture of major A. D. Grünner of the Norwegian army. The picture is dated 1911. We can see to awards: first the Dansih Order of Dannebrog, and second a medal I think is the Queen's South Africa medal. But because of the grey shades on it's ribbon, I'm not quite sure.

What do you guys think, is it the QSA?

[Chris Boonzaier]

Hi,

The ribbon does not look right.... but then, no other ones I can think of would match any better ?

[QSAMIKE]

Hello Kvart......

It is possible as there were a number of foreign military observers with the british army during the war and they were issued with medals......

Mike

[QSAMIKE]

Kvart......

I hope I am not breaking any copyrite rules but here is a photo of Captain A.G.H. Kinberg a Swedish observer......

This is from Spinks special Anglo Boer War Anniversary auction.....

Mike

Edited February 15, 2013 by QSAMIKE

[Kvart]

Thank you for your answers. That is a really wonderful group, QSAMIKE!

I agree that the medal looks like the QSA, but the ribbon does not.

Was the China war 1900 medal issued with clasps? If not, I guess we can rule out that medal.

I did a search in a book about military officers from 1929, and this guy turned up. To me it looks like the same man, but his name in the book is Dahl. There is no Grüner in the book. The text says he became lieutenant in 1894, captain in 1903 and major in 1918. If it is the same guy (and the book is right), the first picture cannot be dated 1911 since he was still a captain then and the above picture clearly shows rank as major.

The text also says he participated in the "Matabile war" in South Africa in 1896.

Amongst his decorations are, apart from knight (2^nd class) of the order of Dannebrog, a medal called "Rhod. med.", which I guess is the British South Africa Company medal (1890- 1897). In the small picture, he seems to be wearing this medal, cf. the suspension of the two British medals at question. There is no mention of any QSA or further service in the Boer war.

If it is the same guy, perhaps he lost his British South Africa Company medal and privately replaced it with the QSA? The ribbon on the above picture, might be the closest he got to the yellow-blue-ribbon of the British South Africa Company medal.

Or was the QSA issued with clasps for the "Matabile war"?

[Ulsterman]

In a word: WOW!! I wonder if he wrote anything about the war?

[Mervyn Mitton]

Kvart - if the clasp says MATABELE then it is the 1896/7 Rhodesian Medal. The ribbon doesn't tie in exactly, but then, it

doesn't look like the QSA ribbon.

We have a couple of threads runing at present on the Rhodesian History - covering the 1896 period. The first exploratory

expedition into Rhodesia was in 1890 - settlers quickly moved-in and set up towns and small villages. Naturally, the Matabele

and the Mashonas took exception to this and rebelled against British rule. Salisbury wss the capitol of Mashonaland and

Bulawayo for Matabeleland. The Matabele were descendents of the Zulus.

Bulaways was under siege with some 4000 settlers trapped inside. They were formed into fighting units and were

supported by the British South Africa Company Police. The fighting was very bloody and many were killed on both sides.

South Africa sent 800 men from various Regiments to assist and eventually the situation was brough under control.

A peace was made after more fighting in 1897. I will post some pictures of the situation in '96.

With your medal having Matabeleland as the bar, your man must have been in that siege. The Matabele and the Mashonas

are traditional enemies. Mugabe - the present leader is a Mashona and had over 30,000 Matabele slaughtered after

he took power in 1980. Mervyn

[Arthur R]

The BSAC Medal has a very distinctive suspender and clasps, whereas the medal in this photo has a plain suspender and a standard-looking clasp. Those details, plus the general outline of the bust of Queen Victoria on the obverse, certainly make it look like the QSA, or perhaps the Cape of Good Hope GSM, than anything else.

[Mervyn Mitton]

Strange Arthur - his biograpyh mentions Matebeland 1896 - but he was in Stockholm in 1900 ?

[QSAMIKE]

The BSAC Medal has a very distinctive suspender and clasps, whereas the medal in this photo has a plain suspender and a standard-looking clasp. Those details, plus the general outline of the bust of Queen Victoria on the obverse, certainly make it look like the QSA, or perhaps the Cape of Good Hope GSM, than anything else.

Just finished checking the Cape of Good Hopw GSM roll and he is not on there.....

Mike

[Brett Hendey]

Kvart

You might try posting the picture on the angloboerwar.com forum. A member there might have access to a QSA roll for foreigners. I think it is a QSA in the first photograph, while in the second the medal is clearly the BSACo Medal with its distinctive suspender.

Regards

Brett

[Great Dane]

Despite the similarities between the two portraits, I don't think it's the same man.

In the Danish Court and State Handbooks, a "Axel Otto Grüner" is listed as:

1909: "Norwegian captain"
1913: "Norwegian lt.col."

which would fit nicely with a rank of major in 1911.
He was awarded the Order of Dannebrog on the 1st of May 1907 (Commander in 1917).

There is no "Grünner" in the handbooks.

There is also a "Johannes Prætorius Dahl" listed, but his Order of Dannebrog Knight cross was not awarded until 1917.

/Michael

[Kvart]

Guys,

I would like to say thank you for all your help in this thread. I will try angloboerwar.com, thank you Hendy for making me aware of that forum. Also thank you to Great Dane, I guess we now can say that the two men pictured above are not the same person.

[Aberdeen Medals]

Kvart,

In answer to your original question - yes the officer illustrated is wearing a Queen's South Africa Medal with clasp.

The recipient is listed on the respective QSA Medal Roll (ref WO 100/209) as Captain Gruner, entitled and issued with clasp 'Orange Free State'

On the same page and above Gruner's are 3 x other names, as under;

- Lt E Mossberg, Swedish Army

- Lt-Col Jungstedt

- Captain Kinberg

Whether Guner was attached from Norwegian Army or Swedish Army is NOT shown, indeed only opposite Mossberg's name (the first in the list, and who also claimed a KSA) is the notation 'Swedish Army'

Awards to foreign observers and or attaches was a common practise in the late Victorian Wars, and the QSA roll includes multi-clasp awards medals to officers from;

- USA

- Japan

- Turkey

- Italy

- France

- Spain

- Russia

- Germany

- Austria

As interesting would be to see examples of the estimated 8 x QSA's - all with various clasps - awarded to the 'Servants' of several of these correspondents. Curiously and by contrast the non-combatant personal servants of British Officers were only awarded 'Bronze' QSA's!

As information.

[Kvart]

Thank you so much, Aberdeen Medals.

You answered my question completely. Very nice to get the clasp identyfied.