Civil War - US sword - CSA belt

[j-sk]

Hello Gentlemen,

A few days ago, a friend of mine sold to me what I think is a US Cavalry sword hanging from a "Gentleman of the South" CSA belt...?!?!?!?

Regarding the sword, I have found a few markings on the blade ("U.S. /AFK / 1862" on one side and "AMES MF^GC^O / CHICOPEE / MASS." on the other side) and a number (2172) on the guard.

Does anybody know more about this weapon (pattern, manufacturer, etc.)?

Regarding the supposedly CSA belt, is it posssible to get a precise idea about it from the following pictures?

Thank you in advance for your valuable informations.

Jean-Sam.

[j-sk]

More pictures of the sword.

[j-sk]

And now for something completely different... the belt...

[Brian Wolfe]

Hello Jean-Sam,

This is not my area of collecting, mine being confined to British, however while you didn't say it was an authentic specimen or not I have this feeling that it is almost too nice to be original.

I am looking at the belt leather and it looks to be too fresh to have the 150+ years of age. The hand grips also look mint...too mint?

It is a nice sword and I'll reserve final judgement, though I've already probably said too much, until other collectors and especially those of that era weigh in.

Thanks for posting it.

Regards

Brian

[j-sk]

Hello Brian,

Thank you for your comment.

Let's see what other people may say about it.

Jean-Sam.

[Brian Wolfe]

Yes, by all means.

I hope for the best, of course.

Regards

Brian

[Paul R]

Can leather really hold up that well after 150 years?

[army historian]

Yes leather can last a long time if taken care of, I had an 1837 white leather "Tar bucket" New York Fensible Infantry helmet. the leather on the inside looked new. See photos. So the belt could be OK - but I am not an expert. The sword does not look that bad, but the sword knot is not original.

[j-sk]

Actually I have some British army Victorian spiked helmets (cavalry and infantry) and the leather sweatbands are still very supple.

And what about the CSA belt clasp? Do you consider it as original?

[Brian Wolfe]

I'm still not convinced this is original.

Look at the pair as a whole. The sword is in such good condition that the leather seal/washer above the hand guard is pristine, not a sign of any use. Ok, so perhaps the sword was put away when new and never used or worn and therefore is a museum quality piece. However to then find the CSA (the other side of the conflict) belt also in muuseum quality condition I find hard to accept. I also find the buckle a bit to "new" as far as showing any true age.

While I would like to say this is genuine I have my serious doubts.

Let's keep this post active so more members can weigh in on this.

Regards

Brian

[Rogi]

I even stranger things come out "genuine" or "fake" one century and then the opposite the next I've kept my pokemon cards in the attic sealed in a crazy glue style packaging, I'm betting when I get kids and they open them up, they won't even be worth half as much as the marketing machine spins it up crazy.

It is possible to find something in pristine condition after a couple years but from my experience the sword looks ok, the only thing that worries me is the buckle, it looks like someone stained it to appear older :S but then again it depends on the pictures and how they came out too.

[j-sk]

In the mean-time, while "inspecting" the sword, I have found another marking (AFK) on the reinforcement at the bottom of the scabbard. Would it be clue...?

Wheras for the buckle, it might look stained from the picture, but it's probably due to the fact that the former owners used some king of brasso to clean it (hence the obnoxious traces on it).

[Brian Wolfe]

Hi Rogi,

The sword being authentic is really good news and I couldn't be happier. I suspose after a whiile one tends to get a little too cautious. As j-sk has pointed out the buckle may have a reason for the stains. I like the positive direction this is going.

Regards

Brian

[Brian Wolfe]

A little more research, see below.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/US-CIVIL-WAR-M1840-AMES-MFG-CO-CABOT-VILLE-HEAVY-CAVALRY-SWORD-SABER-SCABBARD-/380685078335?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item58a2994f3f

A good friend of mine who ownes a militaria store said that the best way to prove such a sword is authentic is to give it the bend test. Place the tip on the floor and apply a bit of pressureto the side of the blade. The real one will "bounce" back the repro will snap. To be honest I would not try this as a complete repro is still better then a broken one.

Ames Mfg. Co, is still making the reproductions, you can run the name in Google and check this out.

Regards

Brian

[Guest Rick Research]

Regretably, after conferring with my Traveling Museum comrades (several of whom in younger skinnier days were Civil War reenactors) NO part of this equipage is original.

The sword is a replica with incorrect markings, incorrect proportions, and a fat "puffy" grip unlike originals. The Ames Company, BTW, burned to the ground decades ago and is still a weed choked pile of ruins out in nearby Chicopee. If someone is using the extinct Ames Co. name to market replica swords, THEY are not THE Ames company of the 19th century.

The leatherwork, while of decent quality, would not meet the standards of any serious (and some of these guys are nuts! ) reenactor. Pop rivets of the hollow stem type shown here did not exist then. The meaningless markings on the replica buckle are... meaningless.

The T.M. informs me that a company in Mississippi (Jarnigan? not sure of spelling--they are quite agitated that your apparently have paid Very Good Money for... rental costume material) supplies casual weekend reenactor gear as well as more serious material for the dedicated reenactors. A search of online reenactor supplies should turn them up.

This is not my area of expertise, obviously from my 1 trillion posts, but am just passing along what I am told by friends who DO know. There is no way to soften the blow or minimize their conclusion. The lesson here--one all of us ignore at our cost--is to N-E-V-E-R buy what we do not know about. And if anybody does not like anybody else's opinion... DO that personal research FIRST, BEFORE buying--and draw your own conclusions.

The T.M. hopes you an get your money back. Good luck.

[Rogi]

I'd go with Rick, he knows his stuff

I know like ziltch on Civil War, only on painting and techniques

[Guest Rick Research]

I know nothing in this area either--just passing on the opinions of collecting comrades whose opinion and knowledge I respect and trust. If they tell me not to buy something... and vice versa.

Given the terrifying prices being paid for real Confederate items, the thought of money potentially involved here requires us to obey the first rule of collecting: tell each other the truth.

After that, duty done, it is up to every individual whether they swim to the lifeboat or toward the sharks.

[j-sk]

Thank you all Gentlemen for your valuable informations and expertise.

The final conclusion of this thread is: "In doubt, don't!"

Jean-Sam.

[j-sk]

A little more research, see below.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/US-CIVIL-WAR-M1840-AMES-MFG-CO-CABOT-VILLE-HEAVY-CAVALRY-SWORD-SABER-SCABBARD-/380685078335?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item58a2994f3f

A good friend of mine who ownes a militaria store said that the best way to prove such a sword is authentic is to give it the bend test. Place the tip on the floor and apply a bit of pressureto the side of the blade. The real one will "bounce" back the repro will snap. To be honest I would not try this as a complete repro is still better then a broken one.

Ames Mfg. Co, is still making the reproductions, you can run the name in Google and check this out.

Regards

Brian

Hello Brian,

I have tried your "bend test". I applied sufficient pressure to the blade to bend it to a 50/60 degree angle and...... it came back to its original postion..... Was the pressure sufficient ? If so, it would seem that the sword is a very good quality repro...

[Brian Wolfe]

You are a braver man than me.

I'm glad the bend test didn't cause any problems.

I've had some very thin bladed swords in my collecting life and as I mentioned before I would never attempt it.

In a coversation with my dealer friend last evening he told me that he won't purchase any of these that come to his shop because of the good quality reprodictions.

There is, in my opinion, a place for good quality reproducions for use on restaurant walls, dens (now called "man caves") and, of course, for reenactors. I shudder at the thoughs of an authentic weapon of any kind being bolted to the was of a bar or restaurant.

Regards

Brian

[Les]

I used to collect swords, and eventually reached the point in my collecting that I ran out of space, and decided to start limiting what I actively collected and would keep in my collection. The Ames markings aren't the same as originals. That alone is a red-flag. Swords can be taken apart, grips replaced, re-wrapped, and so on, and that usually results in the tang being rivetted/peened a second time, and that can produce a finish not seen on machine mass processed pieces. The leather washers can be a give-away the blade is a fake, or has been taken apart and remounted. The leather washers were stamped cut, and after decades of being inside a scabbard, the edges are rounded and compressed in a way that newly cut leather isn't. Put a suspect piece next to a known original, and many other details will be apparent. The Ames dies didn't disappear. During the 1980's, I saw numerous what appeared to be engraved/presentation sword blades at some of the larger shows across the US, minus the scabbard, hilt and grips. I'm not talking about one or two blades; one dealer had around ten alone on his table. The blades were all in pristine condition. After making enquiries, I learned the Libbey Corporation had acquired machinery and dies that were once part of the Ames Mfg. Co. I wrote Libbey and was told they weren't using the dies to make new blades. There was another Ames company that supplied hardware to the US military and government, to make....shovels. http://www.ames.com/about-us/our-history.aspx

[j-sk]

In the mean-time I found some down-to-the-point sources dealing with this highly interesting subject (one in particular diplaying the same model as mine [http://www.sword-buyers-guide.com/1860-cavalry-saber.html]):

http://www.swordforum.com/forums/showthread.php?88798-Ames-1862-Saber

http://www.angelfire.com/wa/swordcollector/marks/page1.html

The good point in this "affair" is that I brought the sword and belt back to the seller who did not make any fuss about it... Only apologies about his incompetence in this domain and for his failure to spot a reproduction although being an antique dealer by trade. A Gentleman after all.... and he still counts among my friends...

Another indisputable motto: "One learns through mitakes!"

Jean-Sam.

[Brian Wolfe]

Hello Jean-Sam,

I am happy to hear that all ended well. One of the strong points of the GMIC is the collective knowledge of its members and the readyness of the members to help out fellow collectors.

As far as reproductions are concerned I think we have all purchased them unintentionaly at one time or another. I have a couple that sit on my desk just to remind me that we all make mistakes.

Regards

Brian

[j-sk]

How right you are.

Let's hope this thread will be of any help to other people.

Best regards,

Jean-Sam.