For Research Identifiable-To-Be-Medal Bars Number 11 - 9 place Colonial NCO medal bar, is it possible?

[Claudio]

Dear forumites, dear Rick and most knowledgeable research gnomes...

Is it ever possible to identified such a medal bar:

• Preußen, Eisernes Kreuz 2. Klasse 1914 am Kämpferband (1909), E/S
• Preußen, Krieger-Verdienstmedaille, 1873-1918, Rückseite „WR“, am Kämpferband (OEK 1894)
• Baden, Orden vom Zähringer Löwen, Verdienstkreuz am Kriegsband (OEK 160)
• Baden, Großherzog Friedrich I. 1856-1907, Grosse silberne Medaille (OEK 206 )
• Deutsches Reich 1933-45, Ehrenkreuz für Frontkämpfer (OEK 3803/1), ohne Hersteller
• Deutsches Reich 1933-45, Polizei-DA 1. Stufe für 25 Jahre treue Dienstleistungen (OEK 3526)
• Preußen, DA-Kreuz für 25 Jahre der Offiziere, 3. Modell (OEK 1970)
• Baden, DA 1. Klasse für 15 Dienstjahre, 1913-1918, Kreuz (OEK 313)
• Deutsches Reich 1871-1918, Südwestafrika-Denkmünze für Kämpfer mit Gefechtsspangen ORANJE, KARAS-BERGE, GROSS-NAMALAND und KALAHARI 1908 (OEK 3165, 3180, 3174, 3172, 3181)

Well, if not, at least, let me show you this beautiful bar.

ciao,

Claudio

Edited August 11, 2013 by Claudio

[Guest Rick Research]

NCOs now you toss out there?!

OK, take 557 BZ4K's from WW1 and look through Ordenslisten 1905, 1906, 1907, 1908 looking for MEZ2s and then.....

[Claudio]

Yeah... I am running out of bars...

ONLY 557 BZ4K's!!! I didn't know that... but easily immaginable...

[Dave Danner]

It might be possible to cross-check SWA BsVs against the Verdienstkreuz, but the Kolonialblatt only gives last names and I am missing 1908.

[dedehansen]

It might be possible to cross-check SWA BsVs against the Verdienstkreuz, but the Kolonialblatt only gives last names and I am missing 1908.

Hallo Dave,

IMO the silberne Verdienstmedaille Friedrich I. am Bande des

Militär Carl Friedrich Verdienstordens was only awarded until 1907.

Regards

Andreas

[Leutwein]

Excellent medal bar Thanks for showing it.

It might be possible to cross-check SWA BsVs against the Verdienstkreuz, but the Kolonialblatt only gives last names and I am missing 1908.

Here they are

Intendanturdiätar Rayß

Unterzahlmeister Gressenich

Unterzahlmeister Miehe

Unterzahlmeister Hahn

Wachtmeister Leis

Vizewachtmeister Spieske

Unteroffizier Bock

Unteroffizier Rappenecker

Gefreiter Beer

Gefreiter Zuber

Magazinaufseher Kraemer

Feldbäcker Keck

Unteroffizier Staudinger

Unteroffizier Binder

And in 1910 were also 3 awards for GSWA

1910

Magazinaufseher Deichelbohrer

Gefreiter Jegle

Gefreiter Ihle

Best wishes

Karsten

[Dave Danner]

Thanks Karsten,

As Andreas pointed out, after Friedrich I's death in September 1907, the Verdienstmedaille would be changed to the Friedrich II version. So these can probably be ruled out for this medal bar, but they are good to know for reference. I have no idea if Baden would have given a Friedrich I version after his death for a recommendation made before then but not approved until later, but I doubt it.

Based on the bars, he could have been in SWA as early as 1904, but probably arrived a little later.

ORANJE - 26.6.05-30.8.06

KARAS-BERGE - 30.8.04-22.4.06, 12.10.06

GROSS-NAMALAND - 27.10.04-25.5.06, 18.12.08-26.12.08

[Leutwein]

I have no idea if Baden would have given a Friedrich I version after his death for a recommendation made before then but not approved until later, but I doubt it.

Based on the bars, he could have been in SWA as early as 1904, but probably arrived a little later.

ORANJE - 26.6.05-30.8.06

KARAS-BERGE - 30.8.04-22.4.06, 12.10.06

GROSS-NAMALAND - 27.10.04-25.5.06, 18.12.08-26.12.08

That´s true. But I have never seen any medal bar or photo with a "Friedrich II Version" by now. For example Hans Bruckner. He received his MEZ2 in 1907 (AKO 25th. november 1907). So from experience he should have received his "badener" award in 1908 or 1909. Unfortunately is the quality not so good but in my opinion he´s wearing the "Friedrich I -Version".

All colonial bars with baden connection which I have seen shows the "Friedrich I -Version". So I´m not sure if there were awarded some "badener" with the "Friedrich II - Version" for GSWA ?? Maybe someone can prove the opposite?

By the way Bruckner is wearing his medals incorrectly, except the "badener"

Best wishes

Karsten

[Guest Rick Research]

Those were the ONLY baden SVMs for SW-Afrika?!

If so, the only possible BZ4 matches are:

Feldwebelleutnant JULIUS Deichelbohrer of Armierungs Bataillon 64 and

Feldwebelleutnant THEODOR Kraemer of Fußartillerie Bataillon 33

aside from the odd SWA rank (as career NCOs????) missing first names and no way to trace a 1920 Leutnant der Armee a.D. into police service (Gemeindenpolizei...?) BOTH the above received MEz2s on 25.11.07...

BOTH "on the white-black ribbon" as... Magazinaufsehers. (NOT Beamten?....)

Now many of those were changed later for the normal "Iron Cross" type, but yet another unknown with this level of personnel--UNLESS their Auszüge aus der Kriegsranglisten can be obtained from the Baden archives.

There were two "JEHLE" BZ4s, but no JEGLE.

Edited August 12, 2013 by Rick Research

[Dave Danner]

I think those were just the 1908 awards I was missing.

I didn't see any in 1904 or 1905. These are what I have for 1906 and 1907:

1906

Vizewachtmeister Quenser

Sergeant Engelmann

Unteroffizier Stauffert

Unteroffizier Bartels

Gefreiter Schilling

Gefreiter Endres

dem Reiter Duller

1907

Unterzahlmeister Roetig

Feldwebel Stach

Feldwebel Peine

Wachtmeister Deinert

Vizewachtmeister Mankel

Vizewachtmeister Körnich

Sergeant Nakonz

Sergeant Eschberger

Sergeant Daeke

Sergeant Krause

Sergeant Walter

Sergeant Stephan

Sanitätssergeant Meier

Sanitätssergeant Fichter

Sanitätssergeant Haag

Sanitätssergeant Schaar

Unteroffizier Kaiser

Unteroffizier Scheidel

Unteroffizier Weißhaupt

Unteroffizier Großklaus

Unteroffizier Schneemann

Unteroffizier Vetter

Unteroffizier Klages

Unteroffizier Heinecke

Unteroffizier Wagner

Unteroffizier Gimber

Sanitätsunteroffizier Schwarzer

Sanitätsunteroffizier Wolfram

Gefreiter Alex

Gefreiter Leßle

Gefreiter Fehrenbach

Gefreiter Schulz, Gustav

Gefreiter Walter

Gefreiter Neff

Gefreiter Meier

Reiter Küster

Reiter Kallenbach

Reiter Wittmann

Reiter Hettinger

Reiter Wortmann

Reiter Indlekofer

Reiter Lang

Reiter Heckmann

Reiter Schindel

Reiter Schuhmacher

Reiter Mayer

[Guest Rick Research]

This is where the IDIOTIC German policy of never using first names wreaks havoc on trying to sort people out.

THIRTEEN potential additional suspects, NONE of whom might in fact match up, without knowing first names. Even knowing full names might not help with common names.

It all comes down to their Auszug entries, each and every single one of these suspects.

Endres, HERMANN BZ4 26.04.17 "Jäger Rgt"

Krause, GUSTAV BZ4 11.12.17 "Ldstm Inf Bn" (an UNTEROFFIZIER Krause got MEz2 20.03.06 Proviant Kolonne 2 ST SWA)

Walter, ? KARL BZ4 25.02.18 "AOK" orrrrrrrr

Walter, ? LEOPOLD BZ4 15.03.17 "Feldart Rgt"

Kaiser, WILHELM BZ4 09.10.17 "Fußart Bn"

Schneemann, WILHELM BZ4 25.10.15 Res Fußart Rgt 14 (an Uffz. WILHELM Schneemann got MEz2 20.03.06 Prov Kol 3, ST SWA)

Großklaus, GUSTAV BZ4 28.07.17 "Arm Bn" (an Uffz got MEz2 20.03.06 Prov Kol 2 ST SWA)

Wagner, ? FRIEDRICH BZ4 30.09.16 Gebirgs Mineur Komp 172, orrrrrrr

Wagner, ? FRIEDRICH (yes TWO with the same BOTH names, EITHER/NEITHER perhaps in SWA) BZ4 14.01.18 "Aferna" orrr

Wagner, ? JOSEPH BZ4 15.08.16 Inf Rgt 111

Lang, JOHANN BZ4 01.10.17 "Feldwebelleutnant der Landsturm" so PROBABLY not him

MAYER, ? AUGUST BZ4 2. Ldstm Inf Bn Mannheim, orrrr

MAYER, ? WILHELM BZ4 25.01.18 "Ldstm Inf Bn"

all Feldwebelleutnants.

Most of these are NO HOPERS, since there is NO way to tell home state affiliation for anybody with common names and no fist names. Kaiser, Krause, Lang, Mayer, Wagner, Walter...hopeless.

Edited August 13, 2013 by Rick Research

[Leutwein]

Those were the ONLY baden SVMs for SW-Afrika?!

No, the most were for 1908 and three for 1910

There are also 15 who received their "badener" in 1905:

Feldwebel Zydek

Feldwebel Mayer

Unteroffizier Luppke

Unteroffizier Kupper

Unteroffizier Benz

Unteroffizier/ Trompeter Ockert

Gefreiter Schaub

Gefreiter Schüßler

Gefreiter Wäldin

Gefreiter Apfelbacher

Gefreiter Birsner

Reiter Kaltenbach

Reiter Löffler

Reiter Sutter

Reiter Liebe

I couldn´t also find no award in 1904

Best wishes

Karsten

[Dave Danner]

Karsten,

These are gazetted in the Kolonialblatt and the Militär-Wochenblatt as the silberne Karl Friedrich-Militärverdienstmedaille, not the silberne Verdienstmedaille am Bande der silbernen Karl Friedrich-Militärverdienstmedaille. Is this an error in the KB and MWB?

[Leutwein]

Karsten,

These are gazetted in the Kolonialblatt and the Militär-Wochenblatt as the silberne Karl Friedrich-Militärverdienstmedaille, not the silberne Verdienstmedaille am Bande der silbernen Karl Friedrich-Militärverdienstmedaille. Is this an error in the KB and MWB?

Sorry, sorry for my mistake. You´re right those men received the silberne Karl Friedrich-Militärverdienstmedaille. So I was not well-rested this morning.

Sorry for that.

Best wishes

Karsten

[Dave Danner]

Of the suspects Rick has identified in Post #11, I think a few can be ruled out.

• Endres, Hermann, Fwlt. - * 20.4.1873 in Strümpfelbrunn, entered service in 1893

• Kaiser, Wilhelm, Fwlt. - * 22.3.1873 in Langensalza, wohnhaft in Basel, entered service in 1893

• Großklaus, Gustav, Fwlt. - * 29.3.1870 in Ihringen, entered service in 1890

• Mayer, August, Fwlt. - * 14.6.1874 in Nollingen, entered service in 1892

All of these should have received the Centenary Medal. Also, I would doubt that Hermann Endres would still be a Gefreiter in 1905, so probably not the same Endres.

Fwlt. Wilhelm Mayer, * 22.9.1881 in Oberwinden, entered service in 1901, so he remains a possibility, except that I don't think he would still be only a Reiter in 1906. None of the others whom Rick identified appear to have personnel files in the Baden archives. If we had the exact units, as opposed to "bei einem AOK" or "in einem Feldart Rgt", the units' Kriegsstammrollen could be checked by someone in Karlsruhe.

[Guest Rick Research]

They do on the BZ4 list--I was just going by the Roth WW1 Baden volume, which is to hand here and doesn't involve going up and down the tower stairs. Still, WW1 doesn't help for SWA with no first names or reference to parent unit pre Schutztruppen.

[Claudio]

Hi guys! Thanks a lot for your efforts... I feel bad to have given you so much trouble. It looks like such a research can be successfull if I would spend ours at the local archives (Baden) and even if that is possible, it won't be sure that I could be able to find him. These NCO bars are great, but what a pain to be researched!

Thanks anyway!

Claudio

[Guest Rick Research]

These sorts of problems appeal in some way to our oddly wired Research Gnome brains. We HAVE to find the answers-for ourselves as much as anybody else, frankly!

We get closer and closer and closer to ANY such problem the more research and the more Rolls we transcribe (to be instantly computer searchable) so this is by NO means an Impossible Quest.

Look how long it took to find Medal Bar #4!

We're up most nights anyway....

[saschaw]

The 557 BZ4M/BZVKM mentioned here are those published in the KWB? That's until mid-1918 awards only, lacking the 2nd half of the year. The actual award number is rather like (almost exactely) 600..

IMO the silberne Verdienstmedaille Friedrich I. am Bande des Militär Carl Friedrich Verdienstordens was only awarded until 1907.

According to this posting on German SDA forum, the "new" medals weren't available until mid-october of 1908(!), so most, if not all Baden medals awarded for SWA were indeed Friedrich I. issues. I'm not aware if any Friedrich II. medals on the Karl Friedrich ribbon were awarded before WW1, but the chance exists. Hopefully the new Volle book will contain that infomation - the old one from 1976 doesn't.

These are gazetted in the Kolonialblatt and the Militär-Wochenblatt as the silberne Karl Friedrich-Militärverdienstmedaille, not the silberne Verdienstmedaille am Bande der silbernen Karl Friedrich-Militärverdienstmedaille. Is this an error in the KB and MWB?

You're right, that must be an error in the KB and KWB! The last (two) awards for the war of 1870/71 were in 1872, and there were no more Karl Friedrich military merit medals awarded until 1915! Not a single one for the inter-war colonial wars...

A shame such a stunning groups ends to be probably unindentifiable for the lack of first names...

[Guest Rick Research]

Oh no-- absolutely identifiable---

by going into the archive and looking at the Auszug aus der Kriegsrangliste (all of them are there, as wartime Feldwebelleutnants) for every possible suspect.

Something somebody THERE could do in an hour or so. There aren't that many potential suspects, so a mere glance at their awards columns would suffice.

Research Gnome Dave has just crossed the ocean twice to get Baden rolls scans....

Edited August 19, 2013 by Rick Research

[Dave Danner]

It might actually take a little more time. Not all the Feldwebelleutnants have a personnel file in the collection of Personalakten, which would be the easiest way to check. For the rest, you need the exact unit, not "in einem RIR" for example, to check the correct Kriegsrangliste. My scans only haves the order, not the Verdientskreuz. So all I have are the names from Roth, which he apparently got from the Staatsanzeiger, so not all the units, and as Sascha notes, missing the last half of 1918.

But if someone has the full list with units, then it would be much easier for someone in Karlsruhe to check.

[Claudio]

Hi Rick,

It's exactly what I thought when you came up with this list... the only way to find him it is to search in the archives... Too bad, that I am currently in Moscow!

[Leutwein]

The 557 BZ4M/BZVKM mentioned here are those published in the KWB? That's until mid-1918 awards only, lacking the 2nd half of the year. The actual award number is rather like (almost exactely) 600..

According to this posting on German SDA forum, the "new" medals weren't available until mid-october of 1908(!), so most, if not all Baden medals awarded for SWA were indeed Friedrich I. issues. I'm not aware if any Friedrich II. medals on the Karl Friedrich ribbon were awarded before WW1, but the chance exists. Hopefully the new Volle book will contain that infomation - the old one from 1976 doesn't.

You're right, that must be an error in the KB and KWB! The last (two) awards for the war of 1870/71 were in 1872, and there were no more Karl Friedrich military merit medals awarded until 1915! Not a single one for the inter-war colonial wars...

A shame such a stunning groups ends to be probably unindentifiable for the lack of first names...

Hello Sascha,

thanks a lot for your input. Especially for your corrections.You see it again and again...

...both sources are wrong I need primary sources.

Thanks again

Karsten

[Guest Rick Research]

Krause, Gustav = 1. Landsturm Inf Bn Rastatt

Lang, Johann= no unit

Wagner, Friedrich = Aferna 105

Walter, Karl = AOK 11

Walter, leopold = FAR 265

I have the Baden Archive file numbers with page numbers for the ones we know about, but have lost track of who is and is not still a posibility.