For Research Identifiable-To-Be-Medal Bars Number 16

[Dete]

Hello,

recently i could acquire this nice hessian bar from another collector. I was already looking for a long time for one with a Philipsorden with swords.

So, i always try at least to understand a bit how the research for a name is done and then try to investigate by my own with my very limited sources.

Looking at this bar, i would guess that it must belong to a prussian officer of the VII or VIII army corp. Getting the Philipsorden prob. as a young Leutnant etc. in the 1870/71 war. Still in service 1897. If i would have the sources, i would look at the names of the holder of the Philipsorden 1st class with swords and compare them with the names of the regimens in the ranglist around 1871.

maybe complete nonsense, but learning by doing.

So if this one is possible to research, i would be very grateful.

best regards

Detlev

[Guest Rick Research]

He was a Major, possibly Oberstleutnant aD. Back then, all awards of the Phillip to military personnel had swords, even in peacetime. Because it is a Ritter 1, Klasse, I think probably one he got as a Major or so. The key to this will be NO 1870 Iron Cross and the bars of the 1870 War Medaal.

It's a really nice bar.

[Guest Rick Research]

I have him for you. I don't want to be a tease (like Chris Boonzaier) but I have errands to run today and it takes so long assembling scans for all the documentation that it may be supper time here (now lunchtime) before I can post everything. But he is "found."

[Guest Rick Research]

OK, rush job with scans instead of my usual epic typing....

How did I find the original wearer of this bar?

First, the combination strongly suggests a Major, or perhaps a retired Oberstleutnant—that is what the RAO4 and XXV suggest. The Hessian Phillip’s class (HP3aX) also suggest receiving that as a Major, so I discounted the possibility that it was an 1870 award, because the XXV is the final type cross, not an early version. As is so very often the case, what is NOT on here is just as important as what IS. There is no 1870 EK2.

Next I went to Eric Ludvigsen’s listing of the 1870/71 battle bars combinations. That listing exists in other forms and other places, but this is what I have to use. These three bars are a VERY distinct combination to ONLY: Staff of the 3^rd Reserve Cavalry Brigade, Infantry Regiment 19, and Infantry Regiment 81. That’s it!!!

Next I thought I’d take the easy, lazy way out and speedily find him thanks to Glenn’s Master List of award groups from the 1895 Rank List. No such luck.

That left poring through the Stammlisten of IR 19 and IR 81 which, again thanks to Glenn, I have to hand. No one from IR 19. ONE match in IR 81—

Bernhard Friedrich Wilhelm Georg Adolf von Ditfurth

Born 8 September 1847 in Düsseldorf, alive 1926

Details of his career from the 1904 IR 81 Stammliste:

That unfortunately did not confirm his battle bars, but we’ve got that already as mentioned.

Here are his THREE Orders, because he also got a Johanniter:

RAO4 18.01.97 =

JO 21.02.00 =

HP3aX 05.11.91 =

Von Ditfurth’s final Rank List appearance in 1900:

We know he was alive in 1913 from the directory of retired Prussian officers from the rank of Major up—

And the Hessian “1914” Ordensliste above (actually 1913).

But how do we know von Ditfurth was alive in 1926? Because he was recalled for WW1, in Landsturm Infanterie Ersatz Bataillon II Worms—

That is his 1914-1918 Honor Rank List entry, 1926.

So, with a distinct combination, limited pool of suspects and—most importantly—having ALL the reference sources needed, this took less time than from my first post above to being certain enough for the second. Would that they were all so “easy!”

[Dete]

Hi Rick,

thank you very much again for taking the time to do this. Fantastik that the bar now has a name.

I see, it is still a very long way to go to make some resenable research on my own.

Best regards

Detlev

[Poulton Palmer]

Fantastik that the bar now has a name.

I see, it is still a very long way to go to make some resenable research on my own.

Hi Detlev,

I know what you mean when you say have a long way to go. Just let us try and maybe we will get better and better in the future.

Congrats with this nice bar which thanks to Rick now has a name!

MfG,

Poulton

[Guest Rick Research]

After 30 years it gets easier....

[Dave Danner]

OK, here's a bit of a mystery.

In the 1908/09 Deutscher Ordens-Almanach, Bernhard v. Ditfurth is shown with the awards above, but also with the 1866 Ehrenkreuz.

Based on the Stammliste extract Rick provided, Ditfurth entered IR 28 eleven days after the regiment fought at Königgrätz, he would likely have had an Ehrenkreuz für Treuen Krieger.

However, Ditfurth's entry in the 1904/05 Deutscher Ordens-Almanach does not have the 1866 Ehrenkreuz.

So we are left to wonder, what's the deal? Was this medal bar made after 1897 when he added the Red Eagle and the Centenary? And for some reason, he added the 1866 Ehrenkreuz after 1905 to his entitlements, but did not bother to add it to his medal bar? I imagine he may have felt that while he may have been technically entitled to the Ehrenkreuz, he wasn't comfortable wearing it, since he probably spent the 1866 campaign in a recruit depot.

Given his WW1 assignment, there's a good chance he added at least an Allgemeines Ehrenzeichen "Für Kriegsverdienst", but perhaps at his age felt no more need to monkey around with medal bars. From what I've seen, more than a few older WW1 veterans never updated their pre-war medal bars, and instead wore wartime medals from the buttonhole or the like.

[Guest Rick Research]

Ah, in rushing, I didn't go look at the DtOrdAlm. The Orders Almanac notoriously screwed up editorially, as we constantly re-discover. He was not entitlred to an 1866, having not been in the field. That was no doubt their error, not his. There were no "stay at home" awards before the 1870/71 Medal. The regimental Stammliste was quite clear about war service listings.

Here is his erroneous 1908/09 Deutscher-Ordens Almanach entry with incorrect 1866 War Cross--

As examples of the sort of contemporary period errors we Research Gnomes have constantly to triangulate and verify--note the two von Ditfurths above him with "LpEK" awards. Those were all ACTUALLY Schaumburg awards and not Detmold ones. The editors of the DtOrdAlm seem to have been congenitally incapable of correctly identifying Lippe awards. (That is why the transcribed Rolls books are going to be so useful.... )

We ALWAYS go to as many sources as possible, to winnow out such errors. History may be "dead" but its mistakes "live" on!

Edited August 29, 2013 by Rick Research

[VtwinVince]

Very nice medal bar Dete, I love the Phillipsorden and am looking for a Schnalle with one with swords. So far I only have one without swords on a bar, also identified by the redoubtable research gnome.

[rujab]

Glück gehabt, Gratulation.

Gruss

Rudi