Blucher's uniform

[filfoster]

Well-known portraits of Field Marshal Blucher and other famous Prussian generals of the period show them wearing a single breasted, dark blue habit with red collar and Swedish cuffs. I cannot find a reference that identifies this uniform, as they all refer to the double breasted full dress or undress uniform coats. Yet, the evidence exists in these portraits that this uniform was worn. Does anyone have more information on this order of dress? Was it commonly worn in the field or for walking out (as it was evidently worn for portraiture)?

[filfoster]

King Friedrich Wilhelm III and Graf Gneisenau. The king's litzen would suggest a regimental uniform but again, all my references for Napoleonic Prussian army officer uniforms call for double breasted kollet and no mention of a single breasted frock or surtout.

[filfoster]

No one interested in Napoleonic Prussian generals? Figure painters? Uniform collectors?

[Hoyden R.]

I just went on a "Research Rampage" because I could NOT believe that the Uniform that the trumpeter who rides atop the carriage at the opening of the Spasskaya Tower International Military Tattoo could be an actual uniform. The curiosity was eating me away, so I dove into the wonderful world wide web to find out if this abomination was truly a uniform of the past or figment of some fruity designers fertile imagination.

I have inadvertently educated myself about Napoleonic uniforms. So here is what I have found about the kollet/dolman you have questioned, hope this answers your questions...

Military Uniforms and Material Supply of the Russian Forces during the Reign of Alexander I (Hit Control +F, then type in dolman to come to the Hussar uniform description that you are looking for)

HISTORICAL DESCRIPTION OF THE CLOTHING AND ARMS OF THE RUSSIAN ARMY VOLUME 8 - Army Cavalry, Artillery, Engineers, and Garrisons 1796-1801 (Hit Control +F, then type in dolman, the second hit will describe the dolman.) Picture is here:

HISTORICAL DESCRIPTION OF THE CLOTHING AND ARMS OF THE RUSSIAN ARMY VOLUME 11 - Cuirassiers, Dragoons, Horse-Jägers, Hussars,Lancers, Gendarmes, and the Train 1801-1825 (Hit Control +F, then type in dolman, the second hit will describe the dolman.) Picture is here: notice the jacket on the PRIVATE Tiraspol Horse Chasseur Regiment, 1819-1820. Decription of this jacket

20 May 1814— Officers as well as lower ranks, in all Cuirassier regiments, are given single-breasted dress coats [kolety] with nine buttons, in place of the double-breasted ones. These have piping—in the same color as the collar—down the front and around the bottom to the tails, and white piping on the collar (Illus. 1426) Senior officers and non-commissioned officers of Orders Cuirassier Regiment in 1814.

HISTORICAL DESCRIPTION OF THE CLOTHING AND ARMS OF THE RUSSIAN ARMY VOLUME 17 - Military Educational Institutions, Individual Military Appointments and Ranks, and Flags and Standards of Regular Forces. 1801-1825

6 April 1814 – On the embroidered coats of cavalry generals, instead of two rows of buttons, it was ordered that they have a single row of nine. Piping down the front opening was to be red, and both ends of the collar were to step back from the front opening for a distance of four vershoks [seven inches] (Illus. 2366). The standard army coat for cavalry generals was ordered to have the same buttons and piping, but the collar was to be closed with small hooks (Illus. 2367) (80).

12 December 1816 – The squadron’s nobles were ordered to have: instead of round cuffs—slit cuffs, with two buttons on each, as before, red with dark-green piping; accouterments, arms, and horse furniture as for Army Dragoon regiments: saddle cloths the same color as the dress coat, with piping, trim, monogram, and crown the same color as the collar (Illus. 2346). Officers received the same uniform clothing with their prescribed distinctions that distinguished them from lower ranks (Illus. 2347) (54).

The objects of my ire, the ones that sent me off on this wild chase to to track down this historical source are these. The appear to be based on the Napoleonic Bardin Regulation, but maintain the mitre type hat worn by the Grenadiers and Fusilier, but was fell out during the Napoleonic wars.

Edited September 5, 2013 by Hoyden R.

[filfoster]

Hoyden R, these are good references but for the RUSSIAN army of that time. Blucher was a cavalry general of the PRUSSIAN army and the uniform guides/references that I have found all describe double breasted kollets. Yet, as shown above, the senior generals and the king himself, were painted wearing the single breasted dark blue tailcoat with red collar and Swedish cuffs.

Can anyone please direct me to a reference for Prussian uniforms of this time that describes a single breasted coat with plain collar and cuffs for generals?

Edited September 6, 2013 by filfoster

[Hoyden R.]

Your answer is in the text that I have posted above (20 May 1814; Illustration 1426), however, I did not explain why I posted that answer, so I will elaborate it for you at length.

When one is researching military uniforms, they must know the history of that country, their military, understand the politics of that time and know a bit about the "fashion" of that time period as well. As in ladies fashion, there are trends in military uniform designs. During the Napoleonic Wars, many countries were copying the French uniforms, their designers would make subtle changes for the specific type of unit, it's history, etc. We all know that everyone wants to look like the Victor.

The Prussian Army under King Frederick William III collapsed under defeat by the French at the Battle of Jena-Auerstädt in October 1806. The King and his family fled to Memel in East Prussia where they were given shelter by Tsar Alexander I. The King and Tsar were not only allies, but close personal friends. From this point on, the Prussian Army borrowed heavily from the Russian Army.

The Prussian Army's 'borrowings' ranged from the 'goose-step' to the permanently fixed bayonet and many marches, (in 1914, 15 percent of the offical Prussian march collection was of Russian origin), while Prussian uniforms followed Russian ones in every detail. (Hit CTRL + F, type in "borrowing" to find this passage)

Interestingly enough, BOTH King Frederick William III and Tsar Alexander I were very interested in the French Army uniforms, so much so that their ramblings about them were amusing to Napoleon. King Frederick William III is described as a "Military Tailor". Read further..

“Being at Tilsit with Emperor Alexander and the King of Prussia,” said Napoleon at Sainte-Helena, “I was most ignorant of facts about military uniforms. These two sovereigns, the King of Prussia especially, were perfectly aware of the details of the number of buttons, which a coat was to have, in front, and behind; how the turnbacks, the facings and the collar were to be cut. Not a tailor of the army knew better than King William how much cloth one needed to make a great coat (capote) or a pair of gaiters. Finally,” he said while laughing, “I added that I could not compete with them. They continuously tormented me with questions of which I did not understand a word, though not to offend anybody, I answered as seriously as if the fate of an army had depended on the cut of a jacket. The first time that I went to see the King of Prussia, I found in his chamber, instead of a library, a large room, with the aspect of an arsenal, furnished with shelves and wall hooks to which fifty or sixty uniforms in various ways were hung, it was his guard’s robes; each day, he changed costume and put on a different dress from that of the day before. He appeared to attach so much money to the cut of the dress of a dragoon or a hussar, that he did not have any for the preservation of his kingdom.”

“At Jena, the Prussian army, I must still acknowledge,” the Emperor remarked, “carried out the most brilliant maneuvers in the world; but soon, I made him know the difference that there was between carrying out beautiful maneuvers, wearing rich uniforms and to know how to fight. If,” Napoleon added while finishing, “the French Army had been commanded that day by a tailor, it would certainly have gained a victory; but success usually, in these kinds of businesses, depends on the skill of the General who commands rather, than on the tailor who cuts out the clothes, the Prussian army was completely beaten.” (Source) (Hit CTRL + F, type in "Tilsit" to find this passage)

In 1812, the French issued the "Bardin Regulation" which describes the undress jacket as a single breasted undressed coat with one row of buttons, upright collar and turned back cuffs. This is what the Undress Coat that you have above is based on . The Prussians introduced in 1814.

So, I posted the RUSSIAN references as the PRUSSIAN copied the RUSSIANS who copied the FRENCH. Makes sense?

As to brief descriptions of the jacket, there are some here: Prussian Staff & Specialist Troops 1791-1815 (Type in "undress" in the search box.)

You may also want to locate a copy of David Nash's The Prussian Army 1808-1815.

I've found that locating Military Uniform regulations is also very helpful. I did message my friend Karl von Bohlen who lives in Germany to see if he could assist, but I have not heard back from him. He is from a Prussian family and attended a military high school (it's name escapes me) in Germany.

[OTTER76]

Hoyden, congratz on this finely elaborated and wonderfully rich post of yours. Thanks

[peter monahan]

Hoyden

So that sartorial abomination IS a legitimate uniform? Oh, yuch! Looks like it should be worn by one of the Little People in Oz, or a particularly rural American marching band! :(

[Hoyden R.]

Hoyden

So that sartorial abomination IS a legitimate uniform? Oh, yuch! Looks like it should be worn by one of the Little People in Oz, or a particularly rural American marching band!

No. It is NOT a legitimate uniform, at least not one for which I can find documentation for. I even posted it on several Historical Reenactor's boards and costuming forums. After hours and hours of searching, I have not been able to locate one single plate (illustration), picture, painting, drawing, or written description of a uniform that matches that abomination.

The jacket with the turncuffs, front plackard and shortened tails is from the 1812 Bardin Regulations. The breeches and gaiters are as well. The gaiters were worn by Infantry and were taller (over the knee) prior to the Bardin regulations which shortened them because the Infantry soldiers cut them short to make them more comfortable.

The head cover is a mitre that was usually worn by grenadier's and fusiliers, but it fell out of favor/fashion during the Napoleonic wars (1809) and was replaced by bicorn hats and shakos. The images of the mitre hats (Grenadiermütze) that I saw had brass front plates with images and designs tamped into them from the reverse or were stiffened cloth with embroidery on the front. RUSSIAN Grenadier Regiment Uniforms 1801 - 1825.

Wigs fell out of fashion for Military Officers between 1810 - 1812, the fell out of fashion in the civilian world around 1809.

So, until I find other documentation, I have to say that those horrible nutcracker-esque, playschool colored costumes are an artistic rendition of elements of several uniforms. I would have much rather seen an actual recreation of a trumpeter's uniform from the Russian army used. Of those, there are many illustrations and plenty of documentation.

The closest match to abomination at Spasskaya tower that I could find is this uniform below for an Officer of Life Guard Preobrazhensk Regiment, 1817

Edited September 7, 2013 by Hoyden R.

[Brian Wolfe]

Hello Hoyden,

What an indepth post with very impressive research.

Who would have thought that, with my morning coffee, I would get such a fine education in uniforms of the era?

Many thanks.

Regards

Brian

[Hoyden R.]

King Friedrich Wilhelm III and Graf Gneisenau. The king's litzen would suggest a regimental uniform but again, all my references for Napoleonic Prussian army officer uniforms call for double breasted kollet and no mention of a single breasted frock or surtout.

My friend Mathias lives in Sigmaringen, Germany. I infected his son, Mathias II, with the History Bug a few years ago, Mathias II started volunteering at museum (whose name I can not remember) and was just hired part time. I asked him to help me locate Uniform Regulations in German. He says he thinks he found a book with a description of uniforms from 1800 - 1870 in the museum's library. He will ask for permission to handle it and translate it the pages that describe the Prussian Hussar uniforms. He will take pictures of the pages if permitted.

[Hoyden R.]

Hello Hoyden,

What an indepth post with very impressive research.

Who would have thought that, with my morning coffee, I would get such a fine education in uniforms of the era?

Many thanks.

Regards

Brian

You are welcome. I used to make historically accurate clothing for reenactors, museums and Renaissance Fairs, so I learned how to research clothing so that I could recreated those articles. I wanted my creations to be so accurate that if they were put side by side with an extent example, the only difference between my creation and the original would be wear and the passage of time. We used to joke that it had to be 100% accurate, right down to the under clothing.

I would research the cloth used, the weft and warp of the weave, the type of dye used, how the dye was manufactured, the cut of the article of clothing, how it was cut from the cloth (cutting at an angle or bias will give an article of clothing some stretch. Important for things like gaiters, hose, breeches etc.), the type of seems used to construct the clothing, the thread, thread content, thread weight, the stitches used. For leather items like belts, shoes, pouches etc, I did the same. Where the leather came from, how it was tanned and then dyed, what type of dyes were used, the source of the dyes, what kind of tools were used, what type of fasteners, nails, stitches, source of the metal findings, (buckles, buttons, fasteners, etc) how they were cast, from what metals. With shoes, I researched the construction and type of last used. (Yes, I can even make leather shoes, lol)

It was interesting to me to see how military uniforms have changed and progressed through through the ages as our methods of warfare have changed. From medieval times when colors, color combinations and symbols of heraldry were so distinct that a herald a top a hill or look out could record the course of battle to modern times when our uniforms are made to blend into the environment in which we are fighting.

I found that the "color charts" identifying the different Napoleonic units rather interesting as the modern military has certain color distinctions for certain regiments, units etc. as well.

Edited September 8, 2013 by Hoyden R.

[Brian Wolfe]

Hello Hoyden,

A few years ago I met a book binder from the "old school" and he used only authentic materials and his presses and other equipment was hundreds of years old. Colour of leather, type and even the way it was tanned he controlled by doing it himself.

Up until I read your last post the people I have on me hero worship list had one less on it.

That is absolutely amazing and worthy of great praise.

My hat is off to you.

Regards

Brian

[filfoster]

Hoyden R wrote:

"In 1812, the French issued the "Bardin Regulation" which describes the undress jacket as a single breasted undressed coat with one row of buttons, upright collar and turned back cuffs. This is what the Undress Coat that you have above is based on . The Prussians introduced in 1814.

You may also want to locate a copy of David Nash's The Prussian Army 1808-1815."

Thank you! This is what I wanted. Your post demonstrates a deep knowledge of this subject. It is unfortunate that the readily available sources (well, the Osprey books are certainly readily available but I did not think to look into this volume. Perhaps the 'staff' would have been a good clue to do so), do not have a simple explanation for a uniform that by its use in the period portraiture, was popularly worn by high ranking Prussian officers.

I will try to scare up a copy of Mr. Nash's book.

Edited September 9, 2013 by filfoster

[peter monahan]

Hoyden

I echo Brian's comments. I live on the fringes of the world your describe: I make my own 1812 uniforms and clothing to a fairly exacting standard - but I'm no 'stich Nazi' and good friend include a man whose living is doing the same for museums all over the world. Oh, and history advising on the "Pirate of the Caribbean" series, but we don't talk about that so much!

Your interest and efforts are indeed praiseworthy in the current 'done today, not done well' world we seem to inhabit. keep up the great psost too, please.

Peter

[Glenn J]

Watching this thread whilst on my travels but now back home and looking at a copy of Louis Adalbert Mila's "Geschichte der Bekleidung und Ausrüstung der Königlich Preußischen Armee in den Jahren 1808 bis 1878".

Sub Paragraph 708: Interims-Frack Worn from 1808 to 1856. Same cut as the Parade-Frack (parade tunic) but lacking the embroidery on the collars and cuffs. Until 1814, two rows of buttons and from then on. one row of buttons.

Regards

Glenn

[Hoyden R.]

Hoyden R wrote:

"In 1812, the French issued the "Bardin Regulation" which describes the undress jacket as a single breasted undressed coat with one row of buttons, upright collar and turned back cuffs. This is what the Undress Coat that you have above is based on . The Prussians introduced in 1814.

You may also want to locate a copy of David Nash's The Prussian Army 1808-1815."

Thank you! This is what I wanted. Your post demonstrates a deep knowledge of this subject. It is unfortunate that the readily available sources (well, the Osprey books are certainly readily available but I did not think to look into this volume. Perhaps the 'staff' would have been a good clue to do so), do not have a simple explanation for a uniform that by its use in the period portraiture, was popularly worn by high ranking Prussian officers.

I will try to scare up a copy of Mr. Nash's book.

Have a look here. Abe's Books is one of my favorite places to get books from. I have scored some fabulous finds there.

The Prussian Army 1808-1815, David Nash

You know those dusty book barn type stores? The ones with stacks and stacks of used books EVERYWHERE? Check those out. I used to always keep several copies of my updated "Book Lust List" in the center console of my truck so that I always had it on hand AND I could leave a copy with the owner or manager of those stores if they asked for my list. Quite often I would get a call that a book I was looking for had come in.

I scored a hard bound copy of the Medieval Tailor's Assistant for $15.00 when they were out of print and going for up to $100.00 on Abe Books and Ebay.

I would also check out Goodwill, Salvation Army and other Charity thrift stores because quite often people will dump entire estates of books there.

[Hoyden R.]

Hoyden

I echo Brian's comments. I live on the fringes of the world your describe: I make my own 1812 uniforms and clothing to a fairly exacting standard - but I'm no 'stich Nazi' and good friend include a man whose living is doing the same for museums all over the world. Oh, and history advising on the "Pirate of the Caribbean" series, but we don't talk about that so much!

Your interest and efforts are indeed praiseworthy in the current 'done today, not done well' world we seem to inhabit. keep up the great psost too, please.

Peter

Thank you.

You hit the nail on the head, I am that dreaded "Stitch Nazi". Although I tend to be one of the "look, learn & listen" variety vs. the finger pointing, critiquing sort when it comes to reenactors. I also shared what I learned when asked instead of hoarding sources. I wasn't going to do the research for them, but I would tell them what they needed and were to find it.

We won't discuss the historical accuracy of Pirates of the Caribbean. Let us just say that POC has made my Pirate reenactor friends very busy and they've made it a point to make it known that Jack Sparrow would not have stood a prevaricator's chance in hell during the Golden Age of Piracy.

I have an old world set of skills and believe in the old world quality of craftsmanship. And it is also the reason that an old neighbor of mine used to call the cops. Only the obsessed would put a linen arming jack on a human dummy out in their yard and stab it repeatedly with various types of blades to ensure that she had the right combination of linen weight and weave density to arrest a wayward thrust.

[peter monahan]

I see nothing wrong with repeatedly stabbing an arming doublet with multiple blades. If you had a PhD in History it would be called 'research' and you'd have a grad student to do it for you!

I myself once spent an enjoyable afternoon in the back yard - fenced, luckily - with a good copy of a 12th century German sword, reducing a 4"x4" post to splinters just to get a feel for the thing. B***dy hard work too! Those medieval warriors were the equivalent of our pro athletes: callouses and muscles everywhere, including possibly between the ears. People don't get that it took all those peasants to support squires and knights because they spent a 40 hour week just whacking things with swords and battles, or at least individual combats, were sometimes decided simply by who was in better physical shape!

Anyway, I savvy both authenticity and craftsmanship. Keep it up!

Peter

Peter

[Brian Wolfe]

Ah, Jack Sparrow and Bond,James Bond have one thing in common; neither one would last very long in the real world. I won't go on with that line of thinking here as it would be well off topic.

It is interesting how poeple read something, or see a picture of, say, a uniform in a book, and then decide that is the only authentic and acceptable exapmle. This is more of a ramdom comment not based on anything that has been said here, but rather to set the stage for my short story about the only uniform piece I have in the collection.

A friend of mine in Australia once sent be a Mess Jacket that was worn by a British Lt. Col. of Her Majesty's Indian Army in the early 1890s. It really is a nice jacket and I purchased a torso manequin and mounted it along with a tuxedo dress shirt similar to a periond one. I am now in the process of completeing this display by having what was called a Kammerbund made from a black dress-vest. This looked like the bottom of a vest that was made into a cummerbund with two pockets. I have a period pocket watch, chain and fob as well, all of which will be on the display.

After I had mounted the shirt and jacket a local "expert" on anything military, well, infact an expert on just about anything and every thing imaginable was visiting with his wife; she was a friend of my wife so I pretty well had to put up with her husband. The conversation came around regarding the jacket and I reluctantly showed him the display, as it was at that time. He took one look and proclaimed that this was totally wrong and that jacket would never have been worn by a British Officer in the Indian Army let alone by a Lt. Col. All I said was something to the effect that his comment was interesting and that I would take it under advisement.

What he didn't know was that with the jacket came the officers "papers" and the final nail in this visitor's coffin, so-to-speak, that made him out the fool I knew him to be was that the jacket has the officer's name on the inside.

That's my unform story for what it's worth.

Regards

Brian

[Brian Wolfe]

This post got me to thinking about the uniforms and even the people depicted in historical paintings that may not be as they were in the day.

The one that comes to mind is a painting by Benjamin West in 1770 titled, “The Death of General Wolfe”, which took place on the Plains of Abraham in 1759. This painting hangs in the National Gallery of Canada in Ottawa and has been accepted for years as an accurate depiction of the event. It is so full of errors that it becomes almost laughable, had it not depicted the death of my ancestor (not direct lineage). The other shame is that thousands of visitors to the National Gallery each year go away with the wrong picture in their minds of this part of Canadian history.

First the uniforms are said to not be accurate, but I won’t go there as we have those here with much more knowledge than I possess. One of the glairing errors is the inclusion of members of the First Nations. Wolfe neither trusted their First Nation allies nor allowed them in his vicinity. The other factor that would make the Native presence impossible is that Wolfe felt that the war was a white man’s war and should not include the Natives.

Before someone jumps in and makes a remark about the use of the term “Natives” it should be noted that members of the Six Nations of the Grand (Grand River) here in my area have two labels for people; Native and non-Native.

Some of the other errors are that there were reportedly only three people who attend the General’s death not the crowd seen in the painting. Certainly not the crowd portrayed by West in his painting. I have read that some of the people in the painting were not even at the battle but added later after the fact, even the artist himself may be found in the painting.

An earlier painting by Edward Penny in 1763, titled “The Death of General James Wolfe”, is thought to be much more accurate and based on eye witness accounts.

Many times portraits were done by sketching an outline of the subject, the face completed on site and then the rest of the uniform, medals and the background finished at a later time, probably in the artist’s studio. All of this makes the reproduction of accurate uniforms a nightmare.

My (contemporary) hat is off to any and all who reproduce these garments, you are true artists.

Regards

Brian

[Hoyden R.]

This is one of the reasons I look for MULTIPLE sources of information and when there is an extant example, I try to find detailed pictures and have paid people to go take pictures for me. I learned the hard way a long time ago what artistic license means.

[peter monahan]

Yes, long before we had Photoshop [and Forrest Gump] we had artists who worked on commission and included what they were told to or just had a poor sense of events or painted what they knew would sell! Look at all the English portraits of cavaliers and their horses, where the horse's head is the same size as it's master's head. Never seen a horse like that, never expect to, but I can see the canny artist saying to himself "He's not paying for a picture of the horse's face! Make it smaller!"

I wear a repro. 1812 British officer's uniform to a regiment who had their ten buttons arranged singly, not in pairs or threes or fours, but my coat has them in pairs. The only contemporary painting seems to show one of 'our' officers with paired buttons, probably because pairs were in that year and he told his tailor 'Put them in twos and b***er the regulations. I'm paying for it, Ill have it as I like!" So, of course, I'm regularly told 'That's wrong!" I just smile and nod.