Metropolitan Police The start of my collection

[timroutley]

Well I have just received my first Victorian Truncheon to start my collection off. It is by a company called Hebbert & Co London, and also stamped into the rounded end on the handle is W D with what I believe is a pusser's arrow between the letters.

Stamped into the wood near the bottom of the painted area is an E with the numbers 512 below,

Also stamped just above the painted VR is, a B with a 4 and a 3 below - B

4 3

Hopefully someone can tell me a bit more about the Truncheon.

I also have a J Hudson & Co whistle........a small start, but at least I've finally started.

Regards

Tim

[Polsa999]

Well done Tim.....getting started is easy...its stopping thats a problem!!!! Now I know nothing about truncheon's but it sounds like it comes from the Royal Woolwich Dockyard (WD), it established its own police force in 1834 to counter corruption in the detection of theft and idleness. This had been subsumed into the Metropolitan Police in 1841 and in 1846 comprised a force of thirty-nine men, of whom twenty lived on site. I am sure that someone on here will provide further information.....if you are lucky it could be from the original dock force cos I'm not sure if the Met had such fancy truncheons?

The other thing is about Hebbert & Co was that there were three Hebbert & Co. first is Isaac Hebbert & Co 1827-1828, later was Hebbert & Co Ltd 1829-1832, then Isaac Hebbert & Co Ltd 1833 -1852.

So if you know the makers name format, that may also help the experts on here as they were military sword makers for a very long time.

From 1827 they described themselves as Army Accoutrement & cap makers
1843 - Army Clothier
1863 - Army Clothier, cap and accoutrement maker
1887 - Army, Police & Railway clothier, Contractors Contracts & Accoutrement maker
1893 - 1899 - Army, Police & Railway clothier, Contractors Contracts & Accoutrement, cloth cap and helmet makers

Good luck. - Steve

Edited November 7, 2013 by Polsa999

[timroutley]

Hi Steve

Thanks for your input, it all sounds very interesting. The makers name format seems to be - Hebbert & Co London

I have also found another W D with a pussers arrow in between, near the tip of the truncheon as well.

I look forward to any further info on this truncheon.

Regards

Tim

[ayedeeyew]

WD with the broad arrow between it is the mark of the War Department - nothing to do with Woolwich Dockyard I'm afraid.

[Mervyn Mitton]

This is an interesting truncheon in that it copies almost exactly the Parker Field pattern - who were the official

armourers to the Metropolitan Police - although the truncheons were made for them by Hiatt's. There has to be

a reason that Hebbert's were tasked with making this one and I think it possible that it was made for one of the

Dockyards. This florid style was discontinued by the Met. in the 1870's - see page 39 of my book which shows

a similar , smaller, size for an Inspector.

The Broad Arrow of the Board of Ordanance was for a purpose - the military did occasonally issue their officers' with

a truncheon in times of riot - but few examples remain today.

The two sets of numbers would indicate Divisions and the Constables number - but at this distance in time you

may never find the connection between police and military. A help would be if someone could look the numbers-up

and see who they were issued to ?

Anyway - a good start to your collection. Funds permitting we look forward to seeing many more - Police collecting

has been badly overlooked and there are many interesting items still to be found. Mervyn

[ayedeeyew]

... There has to be a reason that Hebbert's were tasked with making this one and I think it possible that it was made for one of the

Dockyards... The Broad Arrow of the Board of Ordanance was for a purpose - the military did occasonally issue their officers' with

a truncheon in times of riot - but few examples remain today.

Sorry Meryyn, but I'm going to have to stick to my guns here - it is inconceivable to my mind that any form of marking to a specific dockyard would be allowed that EXACTLY mimicked an already well known and well established military marking. It would defeat the original point of creating a mark that clearly denoted that an item was military/Government property.

I can offer further evidence in that I myself own a very similar truncheon. 17 inches, marked Field on the end, with the 59 Lemans Street address that dates it to 1877 or very soon after. It is unpainted now, but there is evidence to suggest this may have been stripped off at a later date. Just above the grip it has been stamped K over 552, which would mean it was originally for Stepney if it is a Metropolitan Police truncheon. Like the original posters truncheon, the address has been heavily over-stamped with the W/iD at some point, and also has had the WD surmounted by the /i (the two standard military forms of this marking that are usually encountered) stamped near the top.

Given that the Metropolitan Police made carrying the shorter 15 inch truncheons in a long trouser pocket the norm in 1887 (as part of the change-over from carrying it in a truncheon case on the belt), it is my conjecture that some use was found for the now obsolete longer pattern. Giving them to the military (who, as you point out, rarely used them) would thus make logical sense.

This particular truncheon is a favourite of mine, not least it was the first I acquired, being very cheaply priced, became a Christmas present, and appealed to both my newly developing Police interest and my long established military collection:

http://postimg.org/image/pae0xn7fj/

http://postimg.org/image/y6cla8bjf/

http://postimg.org/image/gznj6u6z1/

http://postimg.org/image/wr8623zip/

Edited November 11, 2013 by ayedeeyew

[Mervyn Mitton]

There is always a certain mystery to some of these early truncheons - they went back into stores and were just

re-issued. My own truncheon was a lignum vitae one fron the 1880's.

Truncheons with the Broad Arrow are rare - perhaps the military bought a number at one time, and when not needed

handed them to the Met. ? Hopefully, if this is the case, at some point paperwork will come to light. Mervyn

[timroutley]

Mervyn and Ayedeeyew

Just to let you know that I've made contact with someone from the Met Police Heritage Centre, and I should be speaking to him tomorrow re my truncheon.....work permitting of course

I will let you know what I find out.

Tim

[Mike McLellan]

Well? What did you find out from the Heritage Centre? I'm willing to bet that your truncheon was used by the Metropolitan Police, and not associated with any dockyard agency.  In his book on truncheons, Alan Cook reminds us that the Defense Ministry inspected as much of the Met's equipment that they could lay their hands on in 1884, and left the ubiquitous WD Broad-Arrow stamp on everything. 

This thread is four years old now. What else have you scored for your collection. Let's have some more pictures! 

Mike.

Edited August 12, 2017 by Mike McLellan
typo

[bigjarofwasps]