USSR Posted February 5, 2017 Posted February 5, 2017 On 4-2-2017 at 00:33, Christian Zulus said: Dear USSR, the Spassky-Tower and the Red Star on top are too narrow. Can you forward the photograph of your OGI on the COA? If your OGI is authentic, then it looks like fresh from the stocks of the mint. Did you invest some few bucks into research? Kind regards Christian Here it is. But as you can see, the serial number was altered. I am really curious why this was done.
Egorka Posted February 5, 2017 Posted February 5, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, USSR said: Here it is. But as you can see, the serial number was altered. I am really curious why this was done. Hello, Interesting. Could you post the reverse, please. Gantsev Dmitry Feodorovich (1918 - 1968) Edited February 5, 2017 by Egorka
Egorka Posted February 5, 2017 Posted February 5, 2017 Thanks! A bit weird... He wore his award at least once, when his photograph was taken. So the mint condition is too minty... And obviously faked number and erasure signs of the old one. Did you get it in a group? I am thinking why one would fake a number? If we trust the order it self is genuine, then why bother? Only if to fit a document or a group...
USSR Posted February 5, 2017 Posted February 5, 2017 I'm very sure it's authentic. Not only because the COA was made by 3 experts (and because I am not exactly a beginner either), but also because this order was bought in Russia 1993 by a trusted friend of mine. Now, the reason why the serial number was buffed out... One can only speculate. What I did notice is that the serial number was erased in a similar manor as some duplicate OPW's 1 and (other?) duplicate Glory's 1st class I have witnessed. But the engraving of the new serial number is a real mistery. The order was not purchased as part of a group so it was not done to deceive.
Christian Zulus Posted February 6, 2017 Posted February 6, 2017 Dear USSR, no doubt, your OGI is 100% authentic - your first photograph was wrong :-) It's a very late version with that pebbled rv. A more or less logic solution for the new engraved s/n. and the absolute 10/10 condition might be, that Gantsev's OGI had been stolen, he went with his documents to the mint and they gave him - or sold him - this very new one. Maybe the stamping machine was out of order or engraving was just easier. So the mint could also not STAMP this cyrillic "d" on the reverse for "duplicat". Have you checked Gantsev's personel files in the military archives, if there is something like that recorded? Kind regards Christian
USSR Posted February 6, 2017 Posted February 6, 2017 Thanks Christian, Yes, it does sound like a plausible explanation. I have not checked the files yet. Do you think this kind of information is documented? Cheers! Matt
slava1stclass Posted February 6, 2017 Author Posted February 6, 2017 (edited) Gents, My take: - The obverse of "967" clearly bears the hallmarks of an original, mint-produced OGI. - Gantsev's OGI was approved on April 10, 1945. He died in 1968. - I have never encountered a mint-issued official duplicate OGI whose serial number was hand engraved. All serial numbers were stamped. The stamped Cyrillic letter "D" (for duplicate) was found above the serial number. - I believe USSR's OGI to be a non-issued/unawarded example whose original serial number was four digits. That serial number was removed and serial number "967" was added. It is anyone's guess as to why "967" was chosen. For illustrative purposes, the attachment shows the reverse side of two sequentially numbered non-issued OGIs. As Christian noted, their very pronounced stippling clearly matches that of USSR's OGI. While USSR's OGI's authenticity is not in doubt, the fact it was altered will clearly affect its long-term value. In my personal view, it would have been better if the original serial number had not been removed - even if it was a non-issued piece. Regards, slava1stclass Edited February 6, 2017 by slava1stclass
Egorka Posted February 6, 2017 Posted February 6, 2017 Slava1stclass puts it well. Sorry to say, but I think, this order is the victim of the "wild" 1990s. The fact that it was purchased in Russia in 1993 strongly supports this case.
USSR Posted February 7, 2017 Posted February 7, 2017 No need to say to say sorry;-) I'm well aware that the value is affected by the serial number alteration ;-)
Christian Zulus Posted February 7, 2017 Posted February 7, 2017 5 hours ago, USSR said: No need to say to say sorry;-) I'm well aware that the value is affected by the serial number alteration ;-) Dear Matt, at least you have an OGI in a most outstanding 10/10 condition in your collection :-) Quite a large number of OGIs have been polished to dead by their proud owners ;-) In 1996 I bought an authentic Kutuzov 2nd class for about USD 600,-. Also for the Yeltsin-era a bargain. By research in the military archives and by experts opinion I came to the result, that the s/n. had been altered :-( I had the luck, to find a Russian buyer at an auction in Vienna in 2009, who payed USD 6.000,- for this order :-) In January 1994 I purchased my Full Cavalier Gnitienko-set of 1st category for about USD 1.500,- from Ukraine. Sgt. Gnitienko passed away in Charkov and his heirs sold the set. So I guess, your OGI is - despite the s/n. alteration - an excellent investment for you :-) And these OGIs with this late and special rv. are quite rare! Kind regards Christian
USSR Posted February 8, 2017 Posted February 8, 2017 Thanks Christian! I will keep you posted about future developments ;-)
slava1stclass Posted February 10, 2017 Author Posted February 10, 2017 On 2/5/2017 at 18:17, USSR said: Here it is And a scan of the obverse Gents, Serial number "967" is now available for sale on the well-known auction site. Opening bid was .99 U.S. cents. Current bid stands at $20.50. Christian's and my own comments used earlier in this thread are cited in the order's description: "The first theory is that the initial order was stolen from or lost by Dmitry Feodorovich Gantsev, he went with his documents to the mint and they gave him - or sold him - this very new one. The stamping machine might have been out of order so the mint could notstamp the number and the cyrillic "D" for "duplicat". The second theory is that the order is a non-issued/unawarded example whose original serial number was four digits. That serial number was removed and serial number "967" was added." Good luck to USSR! Regards, slava1stclass
Christian Zulus Posted February 10, 2017 Posted February 10, 2017 1 hour ago, slava1stclass said: Gents, Serial number "967" is now available for sale on the well-known auction site. Opening bid was .99 U.S. cents. Current bid stands at $20.50. Christian's and my own comments used earlier in this thread are cited in the order's description: "The first theory is that the initial order was stolen from or lost by Dmitry Feodorovich Gantsev, he went with his documents to the mint and they gave him - or sold him - this very new one. The stamping machine might have been out of order so the mint could notstamp the number and the cyrillic "D" for "duplicat". The second theory is that the order is a non-issued/unawarded example whose original serial number was four digits. That serial number was removed and serial number "967" was added." Good luck to USSR! Regards, slava1stclass Gentlemen, "the first theory", mine, is totally wrong! I made a mistake :-( I simply oversaw, that Gantsev already passed away in 1968 and not in the 1990s, during the inferno of the Yeltsin-era. Of course, in the 1960s Gantsev would have got a duplicate OGI with stamped s/n. and with an "d" on it! "The second theory" by Slava1stclass is the correct one :-) I guess, Matt's OGI will get a highest bid somewhere in the range between USD 5,000.- and USD 7,000.-. The order is in an outright 10/10 condition, represents the very last version and there are no doubts about authenticy. On the other side, this OGI has no history, due to fact, that this order came directly - stolen or illegally sold - from the mint and the s/n. was afterwards faked, to hide the legal ownership of the Moscow mint. So, it seems quite difficult, to sell it to a Russian collector. Kind regards Christian
slava1stclass Posted February 20, 2017 Author Posted February 20, 2017 (edited) On 12/15/2016 at 13:00, USSR said: Last January he sold a single undocumented OG1 for $7750 so $10k for this set will be easy to accomplish. On 2/6/2017 at 11:47, slava1stclass said: Gents, While USSR's OGI's authenticity is not in doubt, the fact it was altered will clearly affect its long-term value. In my personal view, it would have been better if the original serial number had not been removed - even if it was a non-issued piece. Regards, slava1stclass On 2/10/2017 at 10:07, Christian Zulus said: Gentlemen, I guess, Matt's OGI will get a highest bid somewhere in the range between USD 5,000.- and USD 7,000.-. Kind regards Christian Gents, USSR's OGI serial number "967" sold for $5,000.00 on the well-known auction site. Regards, slava1stclass Edited February 20, 2017 by slava1stclass
Christian Zulus Posted February 20, 2017 Posted February 20, 2017 5 hours ago, slava1stclass said: Gents, USSR's OGI serial number "967" sold for $5,000.00 on the well-known auction site. Regards, slava1stclass Dear slava1stclass, many thanks for the information and congratulation to Matt (USSR)! Kind regards Christian
slava1stclass Posted February 28, 2017 Author Posted February 28, 2017 On 9/23/2016 at 15:51, slava1stclass said: Gents, Currently available on the well-known auction site for a buy-it-now price of $3,500.00. The orders booklet and OGII only first surfaced at auction in Ukraine a couple of years back. Since then, the "OGIII" has now suddenly appeared. While I'm confident in the OGII's and orders booklet's authenticity, I can't say the same for the OGIII based on the images below. While the OGIII's "serial number" matches that awarded to the Full Cavalier in question, the likelihood of the original OGIII being found and then reunited with the OGII and orders booklet seems remote at best. The seller is in Latvia and has a solid eBay reputation. In any event, this an interesting offering as the Full Cavalier in question initially served in an airborne unit and later transitioned to duties as an aerial gunner/radio operator in an IL-2 Shturmovik ground attack aircraft. His OGIII recommendation included credit for shooting down a German aircraft. His IL-2 pilot would go on to earn the HSU title. Regards, slava1stclass Gents, This group went unsold on the well-known auction site. Its last price was BIN for $1,599.00. The seller pulled the listing on February 22 indicating it was "no longer available." Regards, slava1stclass
slava1stclass Posted March 19, 2017 Author Posted March 19, 2017 Gents, Just listed on the well-known NYC-area dealer's site. Price: $11,500.00. Regards, slava1stclass
Christian Zulus Posted March 19, 2017 Posted March 19, 2017 Gentlemen, a fair price for an OGI in a rather good condition! What's the story behind the OGI s/n. 848? Kind regards Christian
slava1stclass Posted April 5, 2017 Author Posted April 5, 2017 (edited) On 3/19/2017 at 11:07, Christian Zulus said: Gentlemen, What's the story behind the OGI s/n. 848? Kind regards Christian Christian, He was a corporal with duties as a forward observer/forward observer squad leader assigned to an artillery regiment in a rifle division subordinated to the 69th Army. His OGI was for action in mid-April 1945 (after the Oder River crossing) during offensive operations to the south of the Seelow Heights IVO of Lebus, Germany. All told, he received seven decorations during the war; six orders - two OPWIIs, an ORS and three OGs and one medal - a CSM. Regards, slava1stclass Edited April 5, 2017 by slava1stclass
Egorka Posted April 5, 2017 Posted April 5, 2017 (edited) OGI 848 - Andrey Nikotovich SAL'NIKOV (1915-1982). Two full OG awardees. Sal'nikov (left) and Rizhen'kin (right). Edited April 5, 2017 by Egorka
Egorka Posted April 5, 2017 Posted April 5, 2017 (edited) Assembly of Full Cavaliers of the Order of Glory, Moscow, 1970. From Rizhen'kin personal papers. Edited April 5, 2017 by Egorka
slava1stclass Posted April 24, 2017 Author Posted April 24, 2017 Gents, Currently available in the former Soyuz. Initial asking price is $8,000.00. This OGI was awarded. Regards, slava1stclass
slava1stclass Posted May 19, 2017 Author Posted May 19, 2017 (edited) Gents, Currently available on the well-known auction site with an opening bid of 99 U.S. cents. Auction runs for 10 days. This OGII was awarded to Full Cavalier Guards Sergeant Major Nikolay K. Moroz. Regards, slava1stclass Edited May 20, 2017 by slava1stclass
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