Chris Boonzaier Posted January 25, 2014 Posted January 25, 2014 Hi, does anyone know what he is, with an 11 on the shoulder? thanks Chris
The Prussian Posted January 25, 2014 Posted January 25, 2014 I was not sure because of the capband. It doesn´t seem to be black to me, but because he wears an IOD, it might be Pio.Btl.11. Another possibility is Res.Inf.Rgt.11 in a simplified uniform
Chip Posted January 26, 2014 Posted January 26, 2014 I doubt it is RIR.11, as he would not have Swedish cuffs. If you look at the cuff piping shade in comparison to the red piping down the front of the tunic, it definitely looks darker (black). I think he is a pioneer. Chip
The Prussian Posted January 26, 2014 Posted January 26, 2014 Hi Chip! Don´t forget that many infantry units also had swedish cuffs, according to the simplifying of the uniforms. The black visor seems to me much more black than the capband. Here I have two pioneer examples with black capbands and a photo of infantrists with swedish cuffs (IR 125)
Dave Danner Posted January 26, 2014 Posted January 26, 2014 RIR 11 was a Silesian regiment. The only non-Prussian awards typically awarded to it were from Saxe-Meiningen, as Princess Charlotte of Saxe-Meiningen, the Kaiser's sister, was Chef of GR 11, RIR 11's parent regiment. I can't make out the ribbon below the EK, but it is not the SMK/SMM ribbon, which has distinctive laddered edges. That doesn't rule out RIR 11, as he could have been born in another state and living in Silesia when the war started. But PB 11 was recruited in the XI.Korpsbezirk, which included many Kleinstaaten: Saxe-Weimar, Saxe-Coburg & Gotha, Saxe-Meiningen, the Reuss principalities, the Schwarzburg principalities, and Waldeck. So PB 11 soldiers had a greater chance of getting non-Prussian awards.
The Prussian Posted January 26, 2014 Posted January 26, 2014 Hi Dave! That´s a good point! Maybe someone can make out the ribbon.
Chris Boonzaier Posted January 26, 2014 Author Posted January 26, 2014 Hi, I will make some better scans later today.... Best Chris
Chip Posted January 27, 2014 Posted January 27, 2014 Hi Chip! Don´t forget that many infantry units also had swedish cuffs, according to the simplifying of the uniforms. Chris, I think this only holds true for Württemberg infantry. Their regiments wore a mixture of Brandenburg and Swedish cuffs before the war, but standardized on the Swedish cuffs in 1915. I can't think on any Prussian infantry units (other than some Garde & Jäger units) that would have worn Swedish cuffs.
Chris Boonzaier Posted January 27, 2014 Author Posted January 27, 2014 Here is a shot of the ribbon... and maybe an answer, a militärpass entry from a guy in the same battalion....
Dave Danner Posted January 27, 2014 Posted January 27, 2014 (edited) Well, the close-up isn't very close (what's the deal with the forum automatically shrinking images, even already small ones?) However, now we are back to square one, at least as far as the ribbon goes. The laddered edges are visible now. So that is in fact the ribbon of the Sachsen-Meiningen Ehrenmedaille für Verdienst im Kriege. Which could be either RIR 11 or PB 11. So back over to you uniform guys. Edited January 27, 2014 by Dave Danner
The Prussian Posted January 27, 2014 Posted January 27, 2014 (edited) Well, the close-up isn't very close (what's the deal with the forum automatically shrinking images, even already small ones?) However, now we are back to square one, at least as far as the ribbon goes. The laddered edges are visible now. So that is in fact the ribbon of the Sachsen-Meiningen Ehrenmedaille für Verdienst im Kriege. Which could be either RIR 11 or PB 11. So back over to you uniform guys. Hi Dave! Are you sure with that ribbon? The Sachsen-Meiningen Ehrenmedaille only may be recieved by soldiers of units of the duke of Sachsen-Meiningen, OR the soldiers where from Sachsen-Meiningen, and served in another unit. http://www.ehrenzeichen-orden.de/c/deutsche-staaten/sachsen-meiningen-herzogtum/page/2 But I read in the Militärpaß: Großherzoglich sächsisches allgemeines Ehrenzeichen in Bronze mit Schwertern http://www.ehrenzeichen-orden.de/c/deutsche-staaten/sachsen-weimar-eisenach-grossherzogtum/page/2 Edited January 27, 2014 by The Prussian
Chris Boonzaier Posted January 27, 2014 Author Posted January 27, 2014 Hi, the pass and the photo are 2 different guys, the pass is 11th Pio Btln for sure...
Dave Danner Posted January 27, 2014 Posted January 27, 2014 Hi Dave! Are you sure with that ribbon? The Sachsen-Meiningen Ehrenmedaille only may be recieved by soldiers of units of the duke of Sachsen-Meiningen, OR the soldiers where from Sachsen-Meiningen, and served in another unit. http://www.ehrenzeichen-orden.de/c/deutsche-staaten/sachsen-meiningen-herzogtum/page/2 There are three ways a soldier typically received a non-Prussian Landesorden. 1. He was in the contingent of that state. IR 32 in Meiningen and II./IR 95 in Hildburghausen were Sachsen-Meiningen's home units, and some 3000 awards of the SMM went to soldiers of those two units. Other units drawn at least in part from Sachsen-Meiningen included RIR 71, RIR 233, RIR 251 and LIR 32, which together are another 1000+ awards. 2. He was a native of the state serving in another unit. PB 11, being recruited from the region, included a number of Meiningen Landeskinder, and there were at least 150 awards to that unit. 3. The Chef or Inhaber of his regiment was from that state (or foreign country in some cases). The Chef of GR 11 was the Duchess of Sachsen-Meiningen. RIR 11 was the daughter regiment of GR 11. Some 200 soldiers in GR 11, and at least 17 in RIR 11, received the SMM. Other examples of such awards were Austrian awards to soldiers of GGR 2 and HR 16, Bavarian awards to soldiers of IR 47, and Baden awards to soldiers of 8.bay.IR. There were also some random awards to people with no obvious connection to a state, but this was more common for officers than enlisted men.
The Prussian Posted January 28, 2014 Posted January 28, 2014 Ah, OK, Dave. I must say, medals are not my main interest. But according to the medal we can´t make out the unit. I have another guess. IF the capband is green, it also could be Res.Jäger-Btl.11
Chris Boonzaier Posted January 28, 2014 Author Posted January 28, 2014 Here is another thought... Pionier Battalions sometimes floated around under various commands. The Militärpass above was part of the 21st Reserve Division... other companies of the battalion were under the 22nd Inf Div, 25th R.D., 38th I.D. and 10th E.D. ... so maybe the chances of getting other states awards increased when the units were under various commands?
Dave Danner Posted January 28, 2014 Posted January 28, 2014 For officers, sometimes. Not so much for enlisted men. With the exception of the contingents of the four kingdoms and the grand duchies of Baden and Hesse, there weren't any division-level state contingents. So being in the division itself wouldn't be enough. Divisions usually did not recommend people for awards, outside of their own divisional staffs, but would collect the recommendations from subordinate regiments and battalions and forward them to the appropriate ministry or chancery in the state. But there would still need to be a reason given, and for enlisted men this was almost always nationality. Officers sometimes got recommended because they "commanded a unit with X number of Landeskinder of your highness", but even these were usually rejected unless the unit had a really high percentage of such Landeskinder. I've read through such award recommendation files from Anhalt, Braunschweig, Reuß ältere Linie and Schwarzburg-Sondershausen, and for enlisted men nationality was typically the only justification accepted. And even that wasn't always good enough. The ministry or chancery would often forward the name on to a local magistrate to determine if the person maintained their ties to the state. If their family left when they were children, or his they spent the majority of their adult working lives outside the state, they were often rejected. Reuß was especially strict in this regard. Some states weren't as strict, though, which sometimes leads to those otherwise unexplainable award combinations. For example, if you were a native of Reuß but moved to Hamburg when you were 18 because you liked boats, Reuß would reject you. But if you were a native of Hamburg who moved to Reuß and spent most of your adult working life there, Reuß might approve your award. And if you maintained your Hamburg citizenship while there, Hamburg might also approve an award. Where does your PB 11 Militärpass say the guy was born or lived? Odds are he was from Sachsen-Weimar-Eisenach. BTW, of the divisions you noted, 25.RD was a Großherzoglich Hessische division. So soldiers there could be put in for the Hessian General Honor Decoration "For Bravery" regardless of where they were from. The other divisions were Prussian divisions with troops from multiple states. 10.ED was really mixed, as it had troops from 24 different infantry regiments, five field artillery regiments, two pioneer battalions and a number of cavalry regiments (I have no idea how Kavallerie-Ersatz-Abteilungen were organized). See the article I wrote here for a breakdown: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/10th_Ersatz_Division_(German_Empire)
ccj Posted February 1, 2014 Posted February 1, 2014 Though the visor cap's band isn't as dark as the visor it still may be a black band. It is interesting and I would think jäger is possible but doubtful based on the award.
Chris Boonzaier Posted February 1, 2014 Author Posted February 1, 2014 Hi Dave, here is the Pass data page...
Dave Danner Posted February 1, 2014 Posted February 1, 2014 That fits perfectly, Chris. A aubject of the Grand Duke, whose skill would be of more use in a pioneer batallion than in the Grand Duke's infantry regiment, IR 94.
The Prussian Posted February 1, 2014 Posted February 1, 2014 But that is not the Militärpass of our protagonist... To me he is Res.Jg.Btl.11
Chris Boonzaier Posted February 1, 2014 Author Posted February 1, 2014 But that is not the Militärpass of our protagonist... To me he is Res.Jg.Btl.11 Hi, Agreed, the two subjcts (Pass and Photo) just merged because they were similar..
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