Gordon Williamson Posted April 30, 2005 Share Posted April 30, 2005 (edited) No real point in listing all the various LDO and PK marks as these are widely available from numerous sources.There does still seem to be considerable misconception about the exact purpose of these markings however.The LDO mark ( with L/ prefix), more properly known as the Herstellerzeichen, was introduced on 1 March 1941. The origins of the LDO lay in a meeting held at the Pr?sidialkanzlei where it was decreed that in order to maintain the quality and thus the prestige of military awards and decorations, their manufacture was to be controlled and licensed.A subsequent meeting held in the Russischer Hof Hotel in Berlin on 15 July 1940 chaired by Dr Doehle and representatives from the orders manufacturing industry formally established the LDO as the central organisation for the control of the manufacture of awards for private retail. The address of the LDO was Leistungsgemeinschaft der Deutschen Ordenshersteller, 27 K?rnerstrasse, Hagen-Westf. (Later moved to Eugen Richter Strasse 6)A further notice on 1 November 1940 from the Pr?sidialkanzlei publicised the fact that the manufacture of orders and decorations for the private retail market was permitted only by Licensed firms. Firms who failed to follow regulations could be and indeed on occasion did have their manufacturing licenses withdrawn (Petz and Lorenz and Otto Schickle of Pforzheim being two examples).The actual LDO numbering was introduced on 1 March 1941 (ref. Uniformen Markt, 1.3.41) and required all awards from that date to be marked with the manufacturers LDO code.There was actually a formal guideline as to where the mark was to be placed. For instance, the official correct place for an LDO mark on an EK1 is in the lower part in the centre. Note that ribbon Crosses, including the RK and Grand Cross were to be marked on the suspension loop. Thus the Zimmermann (L/52) and Godet RK which carry the mark on the loop are correct-but the Juncker L/12 and 2, Steinhauer 4 and Zimmermann 20 RK are, technically speaking, incorrectly stamped being on the frame. This of course just goes to show that regu;lations were often ignoredThe original proclamation reads ""Jeder konzessionierte Hersteller erheilt soeben ein Kennzeichen (Herstellungsnummer) das von 1.3.41 ab auf den einzelnen Orden und Ehrenzeichen anzubringen ist, bei einseitigen Originalen und 16mm Verkleinerungen auf der R?ckseite, unten in der Mitte, bei doppelseitigen Originalorden und 16mm Verkleinerungen in Kreuzform (EK2, Ritterkreuz, Grosskreuz) wird die Zahl in den eingeh?ngten Ring eingeschlagen".The regulations also covered the packaging in which the awards were supplied. These were to be clearly marked with the LDO logo and the underside of the case/carton was to have the manufacturers LDO number ink-stamped.As far as Iron Crosses, for example, were concerned the following were specified.?Full Case? (i.e. the good quality case with hinge, press stud etc).Grand Cross, Knights Cross, Oakleaves, EK1, EK1 Spange.?Half Case? (i.e. the cheaper type with paper hinge and no press stud) EK2?Carton? (i.e. the matchbox type with push out tray) in GrayEK2 Spange.Note that the regulations specify a case with LDO logo for the Grand Cross, RK and Oakleaves. It is well known that many wartime orders were not fully complied with, but, despite the fact that many have doubted the originality of RK or Oaks cases with the LDO monogram, original orders specified that these MUST be used for not only the RK and Oaks but the Grand Cross, confirming not only that these did exist but that the Grand Cross was available for commercial retail sales !One thing which is perfectly clear from original wartime proclamations is that the LDO was NOT responsible for awards supplied to the military EVER, only for private retail pieces. This is important. Comments are often made on the quality of awards such as ?the LDO would never have allowed something like this to go out?.Frankly, if the manufacturer supplied a poor quality award to the Pr?sidialkanzlei, the LDO couldn?t do a thing about it. Only the Pr?sidialkanzlei was responsible for official award pieces, the LDO only for restrikes/copies. Even at the time (Uniformen Markt Issue 9, 1 May 1942) Dr. Dohle felt it necessary to publish an announcement making it clear the restrictions on the LDOs authority.????..the LDO is ONLY responsible for the manufacture and quality of orders etc FOR PRIVATE RETAIL BUSINESS. Orders made through the Pr?sidialkanzlei for awards, and all associated technical matters are NOT to be dealt with by the LDO????.?Attached is a copy of the proclamation relating to this. Edited April 30, 2005 by Gordon Williamson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon Williamson Posted April 30, 2005 Author Share Posted April 30, 2005 (edited) On the subject of the actual markings themselves, during the Third Reich period anyone who had lost their award could obtain a free "official" replacement through the Pr?sidialkanzlei, purchase an additional piece "officially" or buy one at their own expense via the LDO retail outlets, ( these LDO marked pieces were in the terminology of the time referred to as Copies , Replicas or Restrikes). Note that this facility to obtain official replacements does not just relate to awards instituted during the Third Reich. A soldier for example, who possessed the 1914 Iron Cross First Class and lost or had his award damaged, could obtain an official replacement, and this would be appropriately marked with a Pr?sidialkanzlei Lieferant number, such as "4" for Steinhauer.If he elected to purchase his own privately just because he wanted an extra example, it would be marked with the LDO number.How many recipients would wish to pay for an over the counter copy when they could obtain an official relacement free? LDO pieces were considered restrikes, copies or replicas, not proper awards. Original period manufacturers catalogues attest to thisAs far as dual marked crosses are concerned, as the LDO marks predate the Pr?sidialkanzlei marks, it is likely that these were initially LDO marked then had the PK number added when they were used to complete an order from the Pr?sidialkanzlei.Attached is a declaration relating to LDO markings from a 1941 Steinhauer catalogue. Note the reference to the L-16 LDO number being used on "Nachbildungen" (i.e. Copies or Reproductions)In 1941 the retail sale of high grade decorations such as the Knights Cross and above was forbidden. Retailers were allowed to retain only display samples and all others had to be handed in to the Ordenskanzlei, the manufacturers being compensated appropriately. These LDO marked pieces ( like Juncker L/12 Knight's Crosses, L/50 marked Godet Oakleaves etc) were subsequently used as official award pieces.There is no evidence that any lower grade LDO marked pieces such as War Badges, EK1s, KVKs etc were ever used as formal award pieces. Edited April 30, 2005 by Gordon Williamson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Posted April 30, 2005 Share Posted April 30, 2005 Cheers GordonInteresting information ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacques Posted May 23, 2005 Share Posted May 23, 2005 (edited) HiCould it be possible to find LDO mark with the "/" in the other way such "" ?jacques Edited May 26, 2005 by jacques Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike K Posted June 10, 2005 Share Posted June 10, 2005 Hi Jacques,Interesting. I don't know whether the slash can go the other way, but on the two L/52 boxed stamped markings I have, the slash is a typical "/". Both stamped markings are slightly different though, one on a screwback EK1 and the other on a Silver Wound Badge, so two separate punches were used imo.RegardsMike K Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacques Posted June 10, 2005 Share Posted June 10, 2005 Hi Jacques,Interesting. I don't know whether the slash can go the other way, but on the two L/52 boxed stamped markings I have, the slash is a typical "/". Both stamped markings are slightly different though, one on a screwback EK1 and the other on a Silver Wound Badge, so two separate punches were used imo.RegardsMike K←Hi,I alsa have two other Spanish crosses marked L/52, but this one presents all the details required for a genuine cross of this manufacturer, except the "". May be the stamper was tipsy...jacques Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter J Posted March 21, 2007 Share Posted March 21, 2007 Hi Gordon, Thanks for a very informative thread. However there are still a couple of things that are not clear to me and perhaps you can help me out. I hadn't seen any info on when the Lieferanten-Nummer (commonly known as PK-number) came into existence, until I read about in Frank's book and I quote: ".... the by-law of 1st July 1937 designated Hitler as the sole authority in bestowing official decorations and awards. From here on, the Präsidentialkanzlei des Führers, and it's subsidiary branch, the Ordenskanzlei, exercised strict control over the creation and production of decorations, and selected the various companies that would be awarded goverment contracts. Located in Berlin, this institution was led by Ministerialdirektor Dr. Heinrich Doehle. Manufacturers, after being chosen for the production of actual award pieces, were assigned a Lieferanten-Nummer." Next quote: "In Juli 1940, the Leistungsgemeinschaft Deutscher Ordenhersteller more commonly known as "LDO", was founded and put under the direction of its general manager and NSDAP member, Schürmann." Is it fair to assume that 1937 was the actual date for the introduction of the PK numbers? Also, the control of official awards was conducted by the Ordenskanzlei, led by Doehle, but was the LDO a sub-branch to the Ordenskanzlei, thus giving him superiority over Sch?rmann? Is it known what date Otto Schickle's license was revoked? In St.&L.'s add from 1941, the articles Dienstauszeichnungen der NSDAP, verkleinerungen, anstecksnadeln, decorationen etc are mentioned. A recent thread on this forum featured a NSDAP LS miniature with the RZM number M11/1, which should be correct for NSDAP LS decorations. When was the sub-group M12/... founded (NSDAP LS miniatures). I know that RZM numbers are a totally different ballgame, but it would be interesting to know, especially since I can't find St.&L. amongst the M12 firms in any reference book. KR Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter J Posted March 23, 2007 Share Posted March 23, 2007 Bringing this one back to the top. KRPeter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon Williamson Posted March 26, 2007 Author Share Posted March 26, 2007 I haven't seen any original source documents which refer to the date of the introduction of the Lieferant number for the PK. It would make sense that whenever official government contracts began to be issued for awards, that a numbering system would have begun around the same time. Of course the military awards only began to appear after the outbreak of war so if the numbers were introduced in 1937 there wouldn't have been much use for them other than on Political awards. I think the real question is not so much a case of when the numbering system was introduced but one of when the use of these numbers to mark the manufacturers products was mandated. Generally speaking these numbers tend to appear on late war pieces however there are a number of exceptions - for instance Steinhauer & Lück's KVK1 are often found in early quality silver plated tombak, but with the PK number "4". So, I think the numbers may have been around for quite some time,possibly even before the LDO and certainly some early pieces may be found with PK numbers, but that these numbers were only widely used (in the sense of being stamped onto the awards) in the second half of the war. As an organisation, the Ordenskanzlei was certainly superior to the LDO which was only concerned with regulating the quality of copies of awards made for the commercial market, and had nothing to do with the official awards. Otto Schickle gained their licence in March 1941 and lost it soon afterwards. There is an entry in the July 1941 Schwert und Spaten indicating that Schickle had been given permission to sell off existing stock. Perhaps it may have just been a temporary revocation of their licence though for some misdemeanour ?. Afraid I can't help on the RZM numbers. I have no interest in Political awards and so have never made any attempt to study these numbers. I'm sure there will be some evidence or other in the pages of Schwert & Spaten/DUZ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter J Posted March 26, 2007 Share Posted March 26, 2007 Thanks Gordon,The abovementioned type of KVK was actually on of the reasons for my inquiry. I'm still not clear about some aspects, but I'll stand down for the time being and see if I can figure out a way to put words to these complex questions.KRPeter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Posted July 10, 2007 Share Posted July 10, 2007 Just for the sake of it a basic list which might save doing some looking up. Prasidialkanzlei Numbers. 1 Deschler & Sohn, Munchen 2 C.E. Juncker, Berlin 3 Wilhelm Deumer, Ludenscheid 4 Steinhauer und Luck, Ludenscheid 5 Hermann Wernstein, Jena-Lobstedt 6 Fritz Zimmermann, Stuttgart 7 Paul meybauer, Berlin 8 Ferdinand Hoffst?ter, Bonn am Rhein 9 Liefergemeinschaft Pforzheimer Schmuckhandwerker 10 Forster und Barth, Pforzheim 11 Grossmann & Co., Wien 12 Frank und Reif, Stuttgart 13 Gustav Brehmer, Markneukirchen 14 Lauer, N?rnberg 15 Friedrich Orth, Wien 16 Alois Rettenmaier, Sch?bisch Gmund 17 Schwerin&Sohn, Berlin 18 Karl Wurster KG, Markneukirchen 19 E. Ferd. Wiedmann, Frankfurt an Main 20 C.F. Zimmermann, Pforzheim 21 Gebr. Godet & Co., Berlin 22 B?rger & Co., Berlin 23 Arbeitsgemeinschaft f?r Heeresbedarf 24 Arbeitsgemeinschaft der Hanauer Plakettenhersteller, graveur und ziselierung, Berlin Hanau am Main 25 Arbeitsgemeinschaft der graveur 26 B.H. Mayer?s Kunstprageanstallt, Pforzheim 27 Anton Schenkl?s Nachfolger, Wien 28 Eugen Schmidthaussler, Pforzheim 29 Hauptmunzamt, Berlin 30 Hauptmunzamt, Wien 31 Hans Gnad, Wien 32 W. Hobacher, Wien 33 Friederich Linden, Ludenscheid 34 Willy Annetsberger, Munchen 35 F.W. Assmann, Ludenscheid 36 Bury & Leonhardt, Hanau 37 Adold Baumeister, Ludenscheid 38 AG MuK, Gablonz 39 Rudolf Berge, Gablonz 40 Berg & Nolte, Ludenscheid 41 Gebr. Bender, Oberstein 42 Bindermann & Co., Oberkassel bei Bonn 43 Julius Bauer Sohne, Zella Mehlis 44 Jacob bengel, Idar/Oberstein 45 Franz Jungwwirth, Wien 46 Hans Dopller, Wela Oberdonau 47 Erhard & Sohne A.G., Schw?bisch-Gmund 48 Richard Feix, Gablonz 49 Richard Feix Sohne, Gablonz 50 Karl Gschiermeister, Wien 51 Eduard Gorlach &Sohne, Gablonz 52 Gottlieb und Wagner, Idar/Oberstein 53 Glaser & Sohn, Dresden 54 Gebr?der Wegerhoff, L?denscheid 55 J.E. Hammer & Sohne, Geringswalde 56 Robert Hauschild, Pforzheim 57 Karl Hensler, Pforzheim 58 Arthur Jokel & Co., Gablonz 59 Louis Keller, Oberstein 60 Katz & Deyhle, Phorzheim 61 Rudolf A. Karnethz & Sohn, Gablonz 62 Kerbach & Osterhelt, Dresden 63 Franz J. Klami & Sohn, Gablonz 64 Gottlieb Fr. Kech & Sohn, Pforzheim 65 Klein & Quenzer, Idar/Oberstein 66 Friederich Keller, Oberstein 67 H. Kreisel, Gablonz 68 Alfred Klobloch, Gablonz 69 Alois Klammer, Innsbruck 70 Lind & Meyrer, Oberstein 71 Rudolf Leukert, Gablonz 72 Franz Lipp, Pforzheim 73 Franz Mohnert, Gablonz 74 Carl Maurer Sohn, Oberstein 75 Franke&Co,L?denscheid 76 Ernst L. Muller, Pforzheim 77 Bayrische Hauptmunzamt, Munchen 78 Gustav Miksch, Gablonz 79 Matthias Kutsche, Attendorn 80 G.H. Osang, Dresden 81 Oberhoff & Cie., Ludenscheid 82 Augustin Prager, Gablonz 83 Emil Peukert, Gablonz 84 Carl Pellath, Schrobenhausen 85 Julius Pietsch, Gablonz 86 Paulmann & Crone, Ludenscheid 87 Roman Palme, Gablonz 88 Werner Redo, Saarlautern 89 Rudolf Richter, Schlag bei Gablonz 90 August F. Richter KG, Hamburg 91 Josef Rossler & Co., Gablonz 92 Josef Ruckert & Sohn, Gablonz 93 Richard Simm & Sohne, Gablonz 94 Ossenberg-Engels, Iserlohn 95 Adolf Scholze, Grunwald 96 Robert Klein Wien 97 AE Kochert, Wien 98 Rudolf Souval, Wien 99 Schwertner & Cie, Granz-Eggenberg 100 Rudolf Wachtler & Lange, Mittweida 101 Rudolf Tam, Gablonz 102 Philipp Turka, Wien 103 August G. Tam, Gablonz 104 Heinrich Ulbricht?s Ws, Kaufing 105 Heinrich Vogt, Pforzheim Schwanenstadt/Oberdonau 106 Bruder Schneider AG, Wien 107 Carl Wild, Hamburg 108 Arno Wallpach, Salzburg 109 Walter & Henlein, Gablonz 110 Otto Zappe, Gablonz 111 Zierner & Sohn, Oberstein 112 Argentor Werke Rust & Hetzel, Wien 113 Hermann Aurich, Dresden 114 Ludwig Bertsch, Karsruhe 115 Richard Sieper&S?hne, L?denscheid 116 Funk & Bruningshaus, Ludenscheid 117 Hugo Lang, Wiesenthal 118 August Menze &Sohn, Wien 119 Alfred Stubbe, Berlin 120 Franz Petzl, Wien 121 Imme&Sohn, Berlin 122 J.J. Stahl, Strassburg 123 Bech, Hassinger & Co., Strassburg 124 Rudolf Schanes, Wien 125 Eugen Gauss, Pforzheim 126 Eduard Hann, Oberstein 127 Mortiz Hausch AG, Pforzheim 128 S. Jablonski & Co., Ludenscheid 129 Frits Kohm, Pforzheim 130 Wilhelm Schroder & Co., Ludenscheid 131 Heinrich Wander, Gablonz 132 Franz Reischauer, Idar/Oberstein 134 Otto Klein & Co., Hanau 135 Julius Mosersen, Oberstein 136 J Wagner & Sohn Berlin 137 J H Werner Berlin 138 Julius Maurer Oberstein 139 Hymmen & Co Ludenschied 140 Schauerte & Hohfeld Ludenscheid 141 Sohni Heubach & Co Oberstein 142 A D Schwerdt Stuttgart LDO Leistungs Gemeinschaft der Deutscher Ordenshersteller Numbers. L/10 Deschler & Sohn, Munchen L/11 Wilhelm Deumer, Ludenscheid L/12 C.E. Junker, Berlin L/13 Paul Meybauer, Berlin L/14 Friedrich Orth, Wien L/15 Otto Schickle, Pforzheim L/16 Steinhauer & Luck, Ludenscheid L/17 Hermann Wernstein, Jena Lobstedt L/18 B.H. Meyer?s Hofkunstprageanstalt, Pforzheim L/19 Ferdinand Hoddstatter, Bonn L/21 Forster & Barth, Pforzheim L/22 Glaser & Sohn, Dresden L/23 Julius Maurer, Oberstein L/24 Frits Zimmermann, Stuttgart L/25 A.E. Kochert, Wien L/26 Klein & Quenzer, Idar Oberstein L/50 Gebr?der Godet, Berlin L/51 E. Ferdinand Wiedmann, Frankfurt a. M. L/52 C.F. Zimmermann, Pforzheim a. Main L/53 Hymmer & CO., Ludenscheid L/54 Schauerte & Hohfeld, Ludenscheid L/55 Rudolph W?chtler & Lange, Mittweida L/56 Funcke & Bruningshaus L/57 Boerger (B?rger) & Co, Berlin L/58 Rudolf Souval, Wien L/59 Alouis Rettenmaier, Schwabisch-Gmund L/60 Gustav Brehmer, markneukirchen L/61 Friederich Linden, Ludenscheid L/62 Werner Redo, Saarlautern L/63 G.H. Osang, Dresden L/64 Asmann & Sohm, Ludenscheid L/65 Franke & Co. KG, Ludenscheid L/66 A.D. Schwerdt, Stuttgart Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ukok Posted July 3, 2009 Share Posted July 3, 2009 I have an incuse PA makers mark on the back of a Blockade Runners' award. Any ideas ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norm F Posted November 4, 2009 Share Posted November 4, 2009 Just for the sake of it a basic list which might save doing some looking up. Prasidialkanzlei Numbers. ... 17 Schwerin&Sohn, Berlin ... 38 AG MuK, Gablonz ... 54 Gebr?der Wegerhoff, Lüdenscheid ... 75 Franke&Co,Lüdenscheid ... 94 Ossenberg-Engels, Iserlohn ... 96 Robert Klein Wien 97 AE Kochert, Wien ... 115 Richard Sieper&Söhne, Lüdenscheid ... 121 Imme&Sohn, Berlin ... 133 Otto Schickle, Pforzheim ... ... This list from Chairman is very interesting but puzzling. In other listings of PFL numbers from other sources, all of the above numbers are listed as 'unknown' whereas here there they are all assigned to various makers, including, I see, Richard Sieper as 115. (I deleted the other non-questioned numbers from the quoted list to highlight the ones in question.) What is the reference for this list? Is there any proof for the above assignments? This would be an important question to clear up. Best regards, ---Norm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hzenba2012 Posted June 16, 2012 Share Posted June 16, 2012 Hello! I just wanted to know, it's not exactly makers marking, but I want to ask about Hindenburg Cross I've collecting. In the front of the medal, there's years marked. And according to maker, the number/numeral comes with different FONT sizes. My question is, like Mayer&Wilhelm comes with 11pt? sizes. Twer&Turck comes with 8pt sizes. Are the FONT sizes set for each makers? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hzenba2012 Posted June 23, 2012 Share Posted June 23, 2012 Pls excuse me, I have another question regarding Hindenburg maker marks. I sincerely hope? that I will be.... Anyway, I have a Hindenburg Cross, combatant, and it is without maker mark behind. Is it considered fake? Also I suspect there are over hundred different maker markings. May I suspect that this is due to the fact that there was 121 battles during WW1? I really imagining, is it? Looking forward for your.....answer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter J Posted March 20, 2022 Share Posted March 20, 2022 On 04/11/2009 at 18:09, Norm F said: This list from Chairman is very interesting but puzzling. In other listings of PFL numbers from other sources, all of the above numbers are listed as 'unknown' whereas here there they are all assigned to various makers, including, I see, Richard Sieper as 115. (I deleted the other non-questioned numbers from the quoted list to highlight the ones in question.) What is the reference for this list? Is there any proof for the above assignments? This would be an important question to clear up. Best regards, ---Norm I'm bringing this topic back to the top and include the announcement from St&L, specifically the reference to page 12. cheers Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chuck Posted April 2, 2022 Share Posted April 2, 2022 Hi Gordon, I had a question specifically on World War 1 wound badge maker markings. I have seen a few badges from companies such as 4 Steinhauer und Luck, Ludenscheid, L/54 Schauerte & Hohfeld, Ludenscheid & L/56 Funcke & Bruningshaus. Do you know of any official of compiled information of what companies manufactured World War 1 wound badges during the Third Reich time frame when LDO marking were instituted? Regards, On 30/04/2005 at 11:45, Gordon Williamson said: On the subject of the actual markings themselves, during the Third Reich period anyone who had lost their award could obtain a free "official" replacement through the Pr?sidialkanzlei, purchase an additional piece "officially" or buy one at their own expense via the LDO retail outlets, ( these LDO marked pieces were in the terminology of the time referred to as Copies , Replicas or Restrikes). Note that this facility to obtain official replacements does not just relate to awards instituted during the Third Reich. A soldier for example, who possessed the 1914 Iron Cross First Class and lost or had his award damaged, could obtain an official replacement, and this would be appropriately marked with a Pr?sidialkanzlei Lieferant number, such as "4" for Steinhauer. If he elected to purchase his own privately just because he wanted an extra example, it would be marked with the LDO number. How many recipients would wish to pay for an over the counter copy when they could obtain an official relacement free? LDO pieces were considered restrikes, copies or replicas, not proper awards. Original period manufacturers catalogues attest to this As far as dual marked crosses are concerned, as the LDO marks predate the Pr?sidialkanzlei marks, it is likely that these were initially LDO marked then had the PK number added when they were used to complete an order from the Pr?sidialkanzlei. Attached is a declaration relating to LDO markings from a 1941 Steinhauer catalogue. Note the reference to the L-16 LDO number being used on "Nachbildungen" (i.e. Copies or Reproductions) In 1941 the retail sale of high grade decorations such as the Knights Cross and above was forbidden. Retailers were allowed to retain only display samples and all others had to be handed in to the Ordenskanzlei, the manufacturers being compensated appropriately. These LDO marked pieces ( like Juncker L/12 Knight's Crosses, L/50 marked Godet Oakleaves etc) were subsequently used as official award pieces. There is no evidence that any lower grade LDO marked pieces such as War Badges, EK1s, KVKs etc were ever used as formal award pieces. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ortona Posted July 23 Share Posted July 23 Hello QUESTION l have a KVK II w/sword, ring mark 92, i have never seen another with 92 mark, or im not looking to well, has that maker, made these kvk,s thank you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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