Enlisted pilots in combat

[ccj]

Wow Rick,

Yeah, that's a nice gefreiter pilot photo...

Can you show the entire photo? I don't recall seeing an air gunner worn in photo.

 

 

[ccj]

Other than Chip I haven't really seen much opinion on the tunic. There's no doubt its a real Bavarian Tunic.

 

The photo I have show loops for 3 breast badges for I would assume EKI, Pilot Badge, and wound Badge. The thing is, has anyone ever known a gefreiter to earn an EKI as a pilot and not be promoted?

[jaba1914]

Wow Rick,

Yeah, that's a nice gefreiter pilot photo...

Can you show the entire photo? I don't recall seeing an air gunner worn in photo.

Maybe I can help you. First a nice portrait of an air gunner.

Group of air men. Find the air gunner :-)

 

[ccj]

Nice photos and plenty of EKI. All appear to be unteroffizier, one grade above the gefreiter rank I'm searching for with a few awards. I just have come to the conclusion most would have been promoted to unteroffizier or higher before winning an EKI

[Chris Liontas]

Here are some photos of one that might help.  This has been in the same collection for years, a good friend owns it.  I know it is from  Uffz. Hans Kleinschred, Royal Bavarian Jagdstaffel 23.   It might help as a reference.  I don't personally know enough about the German enlisted guys to comment.

[ccj]

wunderbar

[catherineyronwode]

Here is a photo of my great uncle Hugo Kohn taken right after he enlisted to fight in WWI. The photo was taken in Nürnberg (Nuremberg) with the Frauentorturm (Women's Gate Tower) behind him. He wears no decorations -- he had not yet gone to the front, i believe -- and he seems to be wearing a Bavarian pilot's uniform. Any comments on this image?

Edited October 7, 2015 by catherineyronwode

[Chris Boonzaier]

Hi, he seems to have started out as Cavalry, or artillery?

[Claudius]

Here is a photo of my great uncle Hugo Kohn taken right after he enlisted to fight in WWI. The photo was taken in Nürnberg (Nuremberg) with the Frauentorturm (Women's Gate Tower) behind him. He wears no decorations -- he had not yet gone to the front, i believe -- and he seems to be wearing a Bavarian pilot's uniform. Any comments on this image.

Hello catherineyronwode, welcome to the GMIC site.  On my own behalf, I welcome you and hope you visit us with more contributions in the future.

I did a quick search for a Hugo Kohn.  I didn't find him (maybe the spelling of "Kohn" different? umlauts?)  I did find a "Herman Kohn" who earned his International Pilot license on July 12, 1918.

As Chris mentioned, your great uncle may have started out in the Cavalry or Artillery.  Do you have any thing else from him?  Is there any writing on the back of the photo?

[Chip]

It appears that his rank is Feldwebelleutnant or Offizierstellvertreter from the stiff shoulder boards he is wearing.

[catherineyronwode]

Wow! You folks know so much and are so generous with your time! I am very grateful for your help. 

Both of you say he may have started in the cavalry or artillery. What is it about his uniform that suggests this to you? Is it possible he was NOT a pilot? (I based my guess on the close match of his uniform to the well-preserved tunic in this thread). The artillery would have been unlikely for him, but we do have a dramatic snapshot of him on a large white horse, all decked out as a formal horse-rider, but not in uniform -- so the cavalry might be an option,  

Hugo Stefan Kohn, PhD was not a military man. He was a chemist; his field of research was the nutritive chemical composition of artificial or processed animal feeds, a new field of development at that time. (This might explain a cavalry interest.) 

He was born and raised in Nuremberg to a wealthy Jewish banking and manufacturing family -- and quite a few of the men in the family patriotically enlisted in the German forces during World War One. Surnames in the family were Kohn (bankers), Bing (toy train manufacturers), Reizenstein (musicians), Hopf (hops dealers to the German beer industry), Oppenheimer (bankers), and so forth. Virtually all of them were cousins to one another.  

Hugo Kohn had lived and worked in England in 1908 before returning to Germany; he also travelled to Hungary and married a Jewish theater actress there. He was quite a character. He escaped the Nazis by travelling to England to stay with friends and family there, and he survived the Second World War. The idea of him in military uniform was actually quite surprising to us. My cousin found this photo among his mother's memorabilia after her death. The "Hugo" is written on the back, but it is in the handwriting of a niece of his and was added in the 1950s. 

[Chip]

Catherine,

There were many Jewish firms that had contracts with the German army in WWI, Gebrüder Israel comes to mind, but there were others, just as there were here in the U.S. All collectors here are very familiar with Gebrüder Bing from Nürnberg, who made so many items for the army. They made, among other things, flashlights, lanterns, backpacks, mess kits, cups, canteens...just about anything made from sheet metal.I have a number of Bing made items in my collection, as do most members of this forum.

It was very interesting to read the brief history of your great uncle.

Regards,

Chip

[Skarp]

The Germans did not have a specific uniform for their Air Service (Luftstreitkräfte) in WWI. Men transferred to the Luftstreitkräfte served in the uniforms that they wore in their former service (Infantry, Cavalry, etc). Anytime you see a group photo of pilots from a Jasta, or Fleiger Abteilung, you will notice that they wear a wide selection of uniforms. The one most people are familiar with is Manfred von Richthofen in his Uhlan Rittmeister uniform.

Enlisted pilots were promoted quickly if they survived long enough to show some proficiency. There were NCOs that scored very well in the Jastas. The most obvious example being Jasta 5 where three NCOs,  Rumey, Konnecke, and Mai  scored a large portion of the Staffel's victories. Rumey had over 20 victories before being promoted to officer rank.

[Chip]

4 hours ago, Skarp said:

The Germans did not have a specific uniform for their Air Service (Luftstreitkräfte) in WWI.

I think this depends on what you mean. If you mean specific from every other German soldier, I disagree. As part of the Verkehrstruppen, they were supposed to wear the uniform of that branch. Of course, that was not the case in most instances, particularly for officers (during the war).  Perhaps you meant that officer's wore just about anything they liked.

Enlisted men wore the uniform of the branch with the insignia of the Fliegertruppen. Mechanics also had a special black or dark blue work suit.

[Skarp]

I stand corrected. I was trying to make the point that you can't determine whether someone is a pilot by the uniform they wear, but I see that might not be the case when refering to enlisted pilots. I know more about the pilots and their planes than I do about uniforms.