Soviet WW2 Pilot Uniform

[Daredevil]

On another forum serious questions were raised about the authenticity of this pilots uniform (and most, if not all, uniforms from a certian internet auction source/dealer).

I was asked to sell this uniform on my list/site but declined because of the questions of its authenticity; i also declined recently on a group of uniforms that had orignally been from this internet auction dealer. They all had common signs ( amongst them the bad stamps).

DD

[Guest Rick Research]

That's all very interesting...

sight unseen, from scans.

But rather than dismissing a source without explanation (even an idiot like Manion sometimes had great stuff),

or forgetting the Civil War against Kolchak,

or dismissing UNIFORMS because STAMPS (which could indeed be added by anyone to anything... though must be rather silly doing that for unique items rather than flooding the market by the thousands),

I've actually had these in my paws.

And if uniforms with perfect period cloth and perfect period bullion with perfectly correct period insignia can be miraculously made with thread that would disintegrate if you tried to remove it

then I suggest everybody on God's earth start collecting Barbie dolls instead.

Oddly enough, I had actually purchased a naval aviation tunic in 2005 that when it arrived, despite being perfect (and unmarked), had every single piece of insignia background only glowing bright electric blue around it. I only "flashed" it because when it arrived, it had shoulder board loops which seemed to post-date the pre-1943 insignia.

NOT being a well known name in uniform dealing, I knew that as a Mere Mortal I would never be able to sell it with that sort of "issue," so after expressing my concerns and reservations, I returned it to the seller...

from whom Daredevil bought it and resold it quite happily.

So doubts and reservations vary from person to person, obviously.

But SCANS cannot replace in hand examination.

Even when things that glow bright electric blue that shouldn't are OK, but things which do not ...

are "not."

Would be delighted to see examples of "bad" Komsomolsk on the Amur factory stamps. Obviously there must be OTHERS, for ONE cap to be dismissed for having ONE. Not being able to afford such exotic items any more (I scooped mine up in the mid 1990s ) , I live to learn.

[Takc]

the white uniform presented is a ridiculous thing.

Initially it is the summer white uniform of NAVY officer

also, try this for getting more info

regulations as of 1952

http://www.wedomstwa-uniforma.narod.ru/for...a1952/1952.html

May I ask you - do you have any book on russian uniform? Do you know russian language enough to read the stamps and markings?

This is interesting to me, because your questions show that you have no idea on what to look at and how to read the stamps.

I myself know very very very little about russian uniform and there are much much more educated people, like Denis R who is now our member, and some other people. But even I see what's wrong with these items.

How can I show you the legit WARTIME stamp?of?KnA?sewing factory,?if?no?sewing?sewing?factories?existed?there?during?KnA?

I guess during the long time since now all items, which were posted here as originals, will be revised and a large quantity of them will be proven fake.

I am very sorry.

In Russia soviet ww2 uniform costs often much more than ww2 german and is much more rare, so what do you think, should it then be more easy and more cheap to buy in USA?

Yes, sometimes good things happen and cheap original things are caught, but not everyday.

please, don't think I am trying to blast your collection into dust and convert all your bucks spent into nothing. Just trying to help you clear out what's this all....

[Takc]

...

[Daredevil]

rick,

thanks for attacking me for re-selling a tunic that I did not think was bad at the time ( i no longer buy bits from that seller); i am not exactly sure what your point is other than to go after me because i made a comment about a uniform that does not belong to you, but was simply posted here. I did not even bring up issues about it until TakC noticed and pointed out the very iffy stamp; for some reason you decided to go after me because of that.

I have sold to you in the past and you seemed ok with it, though now you attack me like I insulted you. I am really not sure where this comes from. As for the white tunic you claimed was bad I did not sell it to you and had I , and you were not happy with it, I would have returned your money.

Again, I am really not sure why you decided to attack me for pointing out that the seller who is a well know Ebay dealer, has serious credibility issues ( has that been raised here before?). I am not sure I can mention the seller, so I will not, but i think you (and most) who is being spoken about. I am not sure why you took this as an attack on you and what you know or etc.

I did not claim that this pilots uniform was bad ( though the point Takc made about the stamps is a great one; and why would you add bad stamps to a good uniform???) but i did claim (and still do) that the source has some very large credibility issues based on what is listed on their E site and what I HAVE inspected with my hands. The uniforms had very similar fake tendencies such as the buttons, the caps, etc. I recently had 3 of these uniforms in (2 pre 1943 pullovers and one M43 pullover) and was able to examine all of them, with my "paws" and they were all fake, tunics, hat, insignia, etc. (the pants were ok). I would be happy to post my findings here if i could upload the photos.

Again Rick, I was pointing out that this large E-dealer has some major credibility issues with their WWII uniforms ( i have never found a defender of theirs) and that this uniform was from them and had some of those signs. I did not say the uniform was fake, because like you I would like to examine it with my hands ( the guy who contacted me only asked, he did not send to me this uniform.).

Rick, you know a lot of great info on soviet items ( you are one of the best on insignia) but I am really suprised with the personal attack you made here when I brought up a very simple point.

DD

[Daredevil]

rick,

even after all this though I would still buy your Militia general if you ever want to sell him : )

DD

[Takc]

I am thinking that the uniform of a pilot is really fake, and have some points on that but I am not sure in this, just because I really have a lack of knowledge on soviet airforce uniforms.

I was only talking about the stamp. And the other stamps depicted are very probably fakes, too.

I also now am waiting for Richie C who has (as far as I remember) a great book on soviet airforce uniform, and will be able to post some pages from it, both depicting correct uniform and correct arm insignia of pilots.

Also, as far as I remember, the insignia on the white tunic shown is from NKVD airforce (crossed swords and star while the regular insignia are the wings and propeller), but the insignia presented at the tunic is very probably fake.

[Daredevil]

The wing on the white uniform is correct, it actually matches up exactly to a wing on P.219 of the Stepanov (and others) book on Russian Air Force Uniforms V1. I am not saying if it is a good or bad wing, but the design is dead on for what it should be (according to this book).DD

[Takc]

The wing on the white uniform is correct, it actually matches up exactly to a wing on P.219 of the Stepanov (and others) book on Russian Air Force Uniforms V1. I am not saying if it is a good or bad wing, but the design is dead on for what it should be (according to this book).DD

Actually, an expert needed, and as far as i am not an expert, I will not comment, only support my previous post on a probable fake character of the wings. Also the fact that it is sewn on the NAVY summer kitel is not on behalf of the emblem itself, I think, also having in mind that the kitel has 1943-1960-ies time frame,?and?the?arm?sewn?insignia?of?airforce?was?amended?in?1943?(Order of the NKO # 25?dated?15?jan?1943? here is the source of info http://www.rkka.ru/uniform/terms/emb_vvs_ruk.htm ).

[Daredevil]

yes, the wings are on a navy tunic, which is correct for Naval Aviaiton. Also, though all of these wings were not supposed to be worn after 1940 there are examples of them still being on the M1940 and M1943 uniform( see Tod Rathbones site on WWII Air Force uniforms). So, these wings did not always conform to regulations 100%.

The tunic itself is an M1943; either the insignia is repro and added to a good tunic, or the tunic came out ready for the new M1943 insignia, but wore the 1940 insignia for a bit.

I agree with Rick that having in hand would be best for examination; as of now the only real mark against the tunic is the 'blue light' test. If the insignia is bad, I would like to know why; i am not saying its good, but if we are going to point out "bad" uniforms we need to be able to be specific ( thus going back to my first post in this thread).

dd

Edited February 18, 2007 by Daredevil

[Daredevil]

As I stated before, I do not think that you can claim 'fake' without having the uniforms in your hands. The seller on E of all these common uniforms, sets loaded with stamps, i'll refer to as "they". If i can mention them, please let me know. These sellers sell this type of uniform over and over again; sets from 1935-1945 loaded with these added stamps. Now i did not get to go over in person the air force uniform that started this thread, but its the same style from the same seller from the same auction from the same time, etc. So, am I drawing conclusions about this "air force" uniform based on the examination of these other 3 uniforms? yes, i guess I am. Rick is basically equating me with the E seller who sells repro set after repro set because I once bought s tunic that he had returned ( guess it was good enough for him for awhile) and then later sold it. The hundreds of good uniforms I have sold are not relevant. Odd logic, but to each his own. Below is my actuall "paws" on analysis of the uniforms from "them."

Anyway, the pics they use on E raise alot of red flags, but I have never been able to actually handle any uniforms from "them". I have always thought they mixed real and fake items; I was wrong and will explain below.

Recently though I have been contacted by 2 collectors who have asked me to sell uniforms they have bought from "them". In the first instance the collector did not send me the uniforms for inspection, but this time I was able to handle them. I will not show full shots of the uniforms, but will only use detail shots.

Now, to the uniforms.....they are FAKE. No mixing (other than postwar pants), just bad items....these would not really fool an established collector, but I could see them fooling a novice, and the photos can be deceptive.

What to look for: The uniforms all seem to share the following:

1. "they" fake easy to fake uniforms; no M1945 generals, but rather field pullovers, M1940, 43, etc. Higher ranks, but uniforms that do not require a huge amount of embroidered detail, etc. The most complex as of now seems to be a M1935 marshal.

2. They are "sets"; sets are very tough to find, and for officers and EMs almost never found. Yet, "they" always have sets.

3. Incorrect ,material on both caps and tunics / pullovers. Same for the caps, as soon as you feel one you can tell.

4. STAMPS STAMPS STAMPS! I have sold a huge number of uniforms and the number of real, surviving WAR TIME stamps I could count on my finders and toes; "they" have stamps on EVERY item; they are clear, detailed, bright and easy to read. Again, all to make the novice feel like he got a good wartime uniform. TakC pointed out that at least some of the stamps don't even make sense.

5. Overaged parts; like buttons that are caked with dirt on tunics with NO wear; caps with cap buttons that have have "wear and rust" on hats with NO wear. They are still new at this and they seem to either not age something (they almost glow!) or overage them.

OK, lets start with caps.

First, they all seem to have this high, "German like" peak (was the forger a previous german forger?).

Here are three caps from "them"; not the identical peaks; the third cap has the wire taken out of it to look a bit different but it is the same identical construction, material, etc, as the other 2.

[Daredevil]

Lets look at some of the details of the caps:

Here is the "NKVD" officers cap:

Note the high peak, the very poor quality sweatliner with no wear, the brim with no wear, the buttons with heavy rust ( though no rust marks on cap), the very thin and incorrect cap badge pins.

Note the nice and bright "wartime" stamps.

As soon as I had the cap in my hands I knew it was bad; if you have handled real ones the feel of the repro is obvious.

[Daredevil]

more cap shots / inside

[Daredevil]

Here is the "NKVD Frontier Troops" cap. Note that it has the same tell tale signs as the "NKVD" officers cap.

1. the cheap and poorly made sweatliner

2. the high peak

3. the rusted buttons on a pristine cap

4. the incorrect material (you have to feel it really)

5. The thin repro cap badge prongs

6. the "wartime" stamp

Edited February 18, 2007 by Daredevil

[Daredevil]

Now lets look at uniforms. Again, I will try to point out details using this pre-43 "NKVD Frontier Troops" uniform.

1. the repro, non aged buttons; made to look WWII, but of low quality.

2.the low quality colalr tabs with insignia that does not fit well, and is pin back; avoid pin back! Not all pin back is fake, but its a bad sign.

3.Overly aged branch insignia on tunic with NO wear.

4.note the collar hooks with NO wear.

5.pullover of wrong, postwar, material

6. and of course, the nice bright stamp with everything but the name of the guy who made it!

[Daredevil]

more from above.

[Daredevil]

repro buttons

[Daredevil]

The ultimate sign of "them". The super-stamp! Nice clear, perfectly readable!

[Daredevil]

Faking for "them" is not limited to pre-43 uniforms; here are detailed shots from an M1943 NKGB field officer.

The buttons are the same as on the pre-43 "NKVD Frontier Troops" uniform, but covered with modern field green paint to make them look old.

The material is also very postwar for the pullover.

"They" are even inventing new places to put stamps! This pullover has the nice bright stamps on the back of the repro boards! Note the incorrect backing to the boards as well, a clear sign of very recent manufacture.

"They" also like to add embroidered order holes to the tunic/pullover. These are very rare on REAL uniforms, but seem to show up to add "authenticity".

Also, in order to make it a better "set" fake wound strpes have been added!

[Daredevil]

more from the 1943 "NKVD" set.

[Daredevil]

more from the 1943 "NKVD" set.

[Daredevil]

the modern made "order holes".

[Daredevil]

Here are sleeve buttons from a third tunic, a grey 1937 "NKVD Officer"; note that there is NO wear on the sleeve and yet the buttons have so much dirt they looked like they were buried ( they were, trust me!). This is called overaging.

So, before i even spoke about the air force uniform that started this thread I had done my homework on the uniforms from this "source". These uniforms were examined in my hands, not from scans, so I think my findings are valid.

i would like to hear if anyone else has anything specific to say about these pics, perhaps things i missed.

DD

[Guest Rick Research]

Not personal at all-- my point being IN hand and differences of opinion based on personal experience handling items, not scans. You turned down selling that uniform based on its seller and I offered an example where I chickened out on another based on my own lack of experience where you had enough confidence to take next after I returned it. That's all.

Unlike Evil Dave who has owned every Soviet awards group except TWO now on the North American Continent , couldn't think of ANY other example where you and I have both briefly owned the same uniform for an example of separate conclusions.

Your scans are quite good and much appreciated since as collectors we must learn and gain experience however possible. And unfortunately the Golden Years for Soviet are now OVER, so for collectors who were NOT there in 1994 or so, scans may be the only way they can learn for the increasingly rare times we actually see anything "live" any more. I wasn't aware that the gimp-work edging on pre-43 line officer tabs was being faked-- not even FAKES work there way in around here, let alone originals. Like the enamel rank insignia, that is a very clear difference.

Yes, Takc, I do indeed READ Russian. I spend many hours translating personnel files and award citations for my friends here. That is the advantage of a Cold War era education. But while I can think in, as well as read and write German and French (something my French friends often quibble over) Russian for me is a reading language and not a speaking/thinking one. Luckily for everyone involved, we did not have World War Three and my non-hobby USE of any of those.

We could REALLY use additional Translation Volunteers whose computers and brains can handle BOTH our alphabets, since I am transcribing thousands of pages of German 1914-18 Sutterlin script handwriting now and don't have a spare several hours to devote to single threads much any more.

Having not only SEEN, but handled the air force uniform in question, all questions of the legibility of the stamps aside and even granting that anybody can add stamps to anything, I turned the shirt and breeches and cap inside out and I'd be happy with it today.

[Daredevil]

rick,i am not sure if you still have access to the air force uniform, but if so, can you post detailed pics (cap lining, etc.)? I do not mean to question you, but just from the pics, it does come from the exact same seller, has the same (in my opinion) repro buttons, the same stamps, the same order holes, as the repro uniforms / caps I have posted pics of here. Does this not seem at least odd that the same seller would have the same "sets" all with the same exact tell-tale signs?

DD