Headdress Insignia of the BRD

[Michael R]

Hi All,  Thought you may be interested in viewing some headdress insignia which I have been mounting recently?  If they are of interest, please feel free to comment and I will post more.  I am looking for BH officer's shoulder boards to buy or trade??

Cheers  Michael R

 

Edited April 4, 2016 by Michael R
Add comments!!

[Gordon Craig]

Michael R,

Interesting lot of cap badges.  You say you are looking for BH shoulder boards to mount.  BH stands for the Bundesheer the Austrian armed forces.  If you want shoulder boards to match the cap badges above you need to ask for Bundeswehr (BW) shoulder boards.

Regards,

Gordon

[Michael R]

Hi Gordon,  Thank you for correcting me!!  It is BW that I am after.  I was probably thinking of WH when I wrote BH as I also collect WWII German Army.

Thank you once again  Michael

Hi Again,  For anyone interested, a few more headdress badges.  This time beret insignia.  Please disregard the patches as they are only space fillers.

Cheers  MR

[Paul R]

Michael!  Welcome to the forum.  I very much like your BW badges.  I have a nice beret to the Franco-German unit and a medic!  

[Michael R]

Hi Paul,  very many thanks for responding!!!  I was beginning to think that perhaps I was out of step!!  Nice, no, very nice uniform and insignia etc. Quite a few years ago I purchased a large collection of post 45 German insignia and most of it has been sitting in my room since.  I got the bug to start mounting it and am now smitten.  I will post some more on this thread and perhaps start one or two more with some of the other bits that I have.  In the meantime, I'll splash a few more headdress badges which I hope that you and anyone else find interesting.

With thanks, regards and best wishes  Michael R

[Michael R]

And a few more

[Michael R]

And some visor caps with badges. The first three are all enlisted ranks with metal insignia comprising the National Roundel in the Federal German colours of Gold, Red and Black surmounting the the Army cap badge of an open top wreath with crossed sabres superimposed across the centre.  These three cap are all Engineer personnel.

Smart caps IMO?

Cheers  MR

[Gordon Craig]

Michael R

Some nice badges here.  I particularly like the Handelsmarine badges.  They are not often seen on the forum.  The unfortunate thing about Handelsmarine cap badges is that the company is almost impossible to identify.  Thanks for collecting your collection of badges and the variations.

Regards,

Gordon

 

[Michael R]

Hi Gordon, Thank you for your kind comments.  Although my post WWII German collection is meant to be military, I find it hard to resist getting into other areas such as the Handelsmarine and Police etc.  I have done exactly the the same with my British collection by incorporating the Police and Merchant Navy etc.  keep watching and I will show some other West and East German bits.

 

With thanks, regards and best wishes  Michael R

[Paul R]

This is a most impressive array of BW hat badges.  I've never seen most of them before!  I really like the heavy embroidered officer versions.  Are these still in use today?

[Gordon Craig]

Paul R,

The heavily embroidered ones are not necessarily worn only by officers.  This type of cap badge is often worn by Feldwebel etc.  Since they are private purchase they are available to anyone who wants buy them.

Regards,

Gordon

 

[Michael R]

Hi Paul,  Thank you for your comments and yes, to the best of my knowledge, they are all current.  With regard to the "Officer's" embroidered badges, Gordon is quite correct as, has been the case for many years, the German military seem to take a greater pride in their uniforms and SNCO's are often given lassitude to purchase and wear higher quality items than those supplied via the quartermasters.  I have several visor caps badged to enlisted ranks but of private purchase and far superior quality. Having said all that, I still tend to refer to the higher quality as officers.

 

Hi Gordon, Thank you for your interjection on this subject.  It proves to me that people are taking an interest in this post which I do appreciate.

 

With thanks, regards and best wishes to you both  Michael R

Hi Again Paul, I am assuming that you are either in the USCG or have an interest in that organization?  If I am correct, you may be interested in a thread which I am about to start on the subject of US visor caps and I intend to start with the USCG and USCGA.  Please let me know.

#Cheers  Michael

A couple of infantry visor caps with green piping.

[Michael R]

These three caps are all of later pattern in light grey.  The first being for Medical personnel with dark blue piping and the later two with green piping again for the Infantry.

Edited April 18, 2016 by Michael R
Ament spelling

[Michael R]

And finally, at least for now, Three more late light grey caps. The first is for Supply personnel with lighter blue piping.  the nest two are for NBC troops with bordeaux piping.

Cheers for now  Michael R

[speedytop]

Hi Michael,

the last picture in Post 5 shows some badges that I've never seen before.

Are these official badges of the Bundeswehr or private made fantasy creations?

Uwe

Edited April 18, 2016 by speedytop

[Michael R]

Hi Speedytop,  thank you for your interest.  To the best of my knowledge, all of the badges shown are original, utilizing both styles of the Christian Cross. The field of each badge is in the Army arm of service beret colour.   I have a naval officer's pattern visor cap with a cloth covered visor and a Naval chaplains badge.  I believe these badges to by original and contemporary??  If not, then someone has gone to a lot of trouble manufacturing the set and to date, I have not seen the usual dealer flurry which usually happens when someone turns out "rare and/or unusual" new badges??  Unless or until I find out for certain to the contrary, I will consider them as part of my collection and original???  I would value anyone else's opinion on these items.

With thanks, regards and best wishes  Michael R

[Gordon Craig]

Michael,

I'm with Uwe on these badges.  I've never seen anything like them before.

Regards,

Gordon

[Michael R]

further to the above, please see the attached photo.  Ergo, if the Marine have uniformed Chaplains either as Military or uniformed civilian, then logically it would follow for the AF and Army to follow a similar practice?

[Gordon Craig]

Michael,

Your comment that these badges are in the army arm of service does not make a lot of sense to me.  My understanding is that Protestant and Catholic ministers/priests serving in the arm forces have their own colour ie purple, and that is what they wear.  I've gone though my reference books and there are no special cap badges shown anywhere for the clergy.

Regards,

Gordon

 

[Michael R]

Some additional Chaplain's insignia??

[Gordon Craig]

Michael,

The insignia you show are well known and obviously for the clergy.  There is certainly no argument about them.  Your marine cap is very interesting and gives us food for thought.  However, I'll remain on the fence until I see a picture of one of these clergy cap badges in wear. 

Regards,

Gordon

 

[speedytop]

Michael,

chaplains are civilians, not soldiers, They don't wear military clothes or insignias. If they wear uniform parts, they wear "protective clothing" (Schutzkleidung) .

The marine cap in Post 18 can not be (German) military.

The chaplain's insignias in Post 20 are (correct) old versions. Here are the new ones:

BW Miltärseelsorge

Uwe

[Gordon Craig]

Gentlemen,

I've been gathering information on the Militarseelorge for the last year or so with the aim of eventually doing a thread on them but never got around to it.  As Uwe says, the clergy that provide religious programs, services etc are not members of the BW but they do wear BW uniforms at times.  I have numerous pictures of them in both army and navy uniforms and in only one are hats seen in wear and that is the wide brimmed "booney" cap.  Interesting that you have found these beret badges as old style authentic ones Uwe.

Here is an English version of what Uwe has said above.

Regards,

Gordon

Bundeswehr [ Edit | Source Edit ]

 

Catholic military chaplain (left) and a Protestant chaplain (right) in the ISAF mission

 

Organizational areas within the portfolio of MoD

The Protestant military chaplaincy and the Catholic Military Chaplaincy in Germany are by state church contracts regulated. It is one of the so-called. "Joint matters" of state and religious communities ( res mixta ).

For the Protestant church a state church contract was closed in 1957 and by the Law on the Military Chaplaincy confirmed 26 July 1957; for the area of the Catholic Church is true Reich Concordat of 1933 according to the legal doctrines continued.

The rules govern the Church and pastoral care of all active soldiers ( professional and regular soldiers , voluntary military service providers , conscripts ). This group of people, including spouses and children heard during the service period for jurisdictional district of the Military Bishop and therefore not with the local community, but to the respective military parish that is led by a military chaplain. He celebrates the monthly site service as weekday service for the soldiers and the Sunday military services, to which the soldiers church in itself garrison churches , churches of neighboring parishes or chapels or suitable premises in the barracks together place. Its responsibilities also include regular consultations, Lebenskundlicher lessons for teams or working groups for officers and NCOs and the offering of religious retreats ( setup times , retreats , work weeks). ^[4]

The military chaplains are (usually for at least 6 years) from their national churches and diocesesoptional for this service. They take part in exercises and Bundeswehr operations abroad. The military chaplains have no military rank, are not soldiers or combatants , and are under the special protection of the international law of war. They are members of the Bundeswehr, federal officials on time and be paid out of the Bundeswehr budget. There are so-called denominational state offices, the State may exceptionally consider the religious view or an agreement of the ecclesiastical authority in the occupation; This is constitutionally by Art. 140 GGin conjunction with Article 141. WRV justified. ^[5] In use, wear military chaplains - like the soldiers - the battle dress with a cross instead of rank insignia.

In order to allow the military chaplains an independent and unhindered administration, he is involved in any way in the hierarchy of the armed forces. To assist in its him a parish helper is set aside. Superior of the chaplains is the military dean in each military district , which reports in turn to the Military General (Catholic) or Military General Dean (Protestant). Legally officials followed only the Federal Minister of Defence, which has however to respect the religious self-determination. At the top of the military chaplaincy ecclesiastical hand is the respective military bishop . The Catholic performs this function in addition to office, the Protestant since 2014 full-time. The Catholic chaplaincy is under him as aquasi-diocese organized.

Central administrative authorities are the Evangelical Church Office of the Bundeswehr and the Catholic Military Episcopate . To carry out the pastoral care and family care have garrison churches (z. B. Idar-Oberstein and Munster), kindergartens and family and leisure homes (z. B. Haus Karrenberg in Kirchberg, House St. Michael Lohberg) built and operated. They set the Catholic. or ev. Arbeitsgemeinschaft für Soldatenbetreung e. V. a. ^[6] In the operational areas they operate in the field camps, the so-called OASIS N as mobile care services for soldiers of all ranks, nations and religions. ^[7] [8]

[Michael R]

Hi Again Gordon.  May I suggest that from a logical point of view rather than a regulation stand, a chaplain working with the Air Force will wear an AF uniform and with the Army, an Army uniform.  If you take a logical extrapolation, I would suggest that an Army Chaplain serving with an Medical regiment is likely to wear the beret of his parent arm of service ergo a blue beret with a an appropriately coloured  Chaplain's insignia?  Certainly with the British Army, corps and regimental personnel attached to the Army Air Corps for example, wear the powder blue AAC beret with their corps or regimental cap badge.  Whilst based in the Falklands I personally witnessed attached troops (REME, RE and others) wearing the Tam-o-shanta rather than their berets but with their own cap badges.  I can not argue the German point as I do not actually know the comprehensive answer. One suggestion I would make is that it may be possible that this is a relatively new regulation in the lee of the adverse comments made some time ago about the Bundeswehr not having their own Chaplains??

What I can tell you is that all the other German badges that I purchased from the same collection, a number of which are shown in the above photos, have all been accepted as original.  Having said that, I must agree with you that photographic evidence would end the discussion.  On a different Forum, I read with great interest a thread entitled "They would never have worn that"  showing WWII original German photos of military personnel wearing an amazing variety of non-standard bits of uniform and accoutrements etc.  Indeed, Having had command of a clothing store on an RAF base, I have seen some of the mismatched bits of uniform in wear.  Ergo, these badges may be an accepted if not regulation adaption??

There must be a German military person on the Forum who can check a current copy or the Reibert or ask a Chaplain in order to get a definitive statement of fact??

I appreciate that my response is less than satisfactory with regard to a definitive answer but it is the best I can do at the moment.. However, I will pursue the subject!!!!

With thanks, regards and best wishes  Michael R

[Michael R]

Hi again, I have just read what Ewe has said re Chaplains not wearing uniform or military insignia and he is patently wrong as the subsequent photos from Gordon prove??  I too went through the net last night and like you Gordon I could only find one photo of headdress in wear and it is the one you have shown.  However, a lack of evidence is not proof.  More digging is necessary on our behalf.

Given that we are talking about a few badges, perhaps this discussion is getting a bit out of hand.  Sweeping broad brush statements should, in my opinion, be avoided.  " The marine cap in Post 18 can not be (German) military". On what grounds can this statement of fact be substantiated??   The attached photos show the label details in the cap.  The NATO codified number shows "8405" Military clothing. "12" Of West German military issue.  The seven digit number, the military item reference number. The manufacturer logo, made in Germany.  Other details include military/government contracts etc. I repeat my question, on what grounds can the above statement be substantiated?????  I joined this Forum to learn and educate by the use of facts and credible opinion and discussion, not sweeping statements of incorrect and unsubstantiated opinion.