Honor Roll Clasp of the Kriegsmarine

[Snoman]

Recent acquisition.Does it appear authentic?

Thanks for looking.

Steve

[Chris Boonzaier]

Can you post a closer shot of the bottom? There the two arms meet the shaft....

[Jock Auld]

Not keen on the pins. Remind me of those modern ones that take the little backing clamp affair. It was awarded 27 times I think or around that many times.  You can find lots of pics on Google.  I think though what you need is a picture of an indisputable original to compare with.  Can't help you there though, sorry. What do you think of it?

[Chris Boonzaier]

There are quite a few around, I had 4 pieces from a stash "souveniered" by a Canadian soldier, at first glance this looks OK, but I would like to see the die fault in the lower right hand corner where the arms of the anchor meet the shaft.... or whatever the sailor boys call the anchor parts...

[Jock Auld]

Chris did you keep any pictures of the reverse of those?  I must say I am not  a  fan of these hoard/vet finds.  Most from the era of CG and Co.  The Dachau cloth hoard is a good example and is a good way for the corrupt dealers to continue to manufacture of these insignia and then slip a few new rarer examples in. It is not beyond the realms of possibilities that there were corrupt vetrans in the 80s and 90s too. When did you handle these? 

I have had a brief look on line and can only find two period pictures in wear and one of those was an 'on board' made item. What were they made of? They seem fairly shiny? GIven the likely late production date I would have thought something like a zinc badge with gold wash, similar to the gold inf combat clasps? The navy really were a tactical bound behind the other arms with regards these and clasps. I quick look reveals that between 27 -60ish awards most so late it is unlikely that they received them?

Is there a rock solid issued example with the provanance to boot out there on any other site?

[Chris Boonzaier]

Hi,

there are lots of these clasps  around, the canadian Hoard was maybe the biggest Kreigsmarine find out there, lots of great and different stuff, the Vet must have had a suitcase full, EKS, EK Clasps, Oct 38 medals, Superb mint Auxillary Cruisers (I managed to pull one of those), Cased Honor clasps... all kosher, all legit.... These clasps are not difficult to find, few were awarded but they are not jewller made, they were stamped on an industrial production run. They were not made as needed.

Of course, Hoards should be subjected to healthy questioning, but there always have been and probably still will be hoards out there.

 

[Paul R]

19 hours ago, Chris Boonzaier said:

...meet the shaft.... or whatever the sailor boys call the anchor parts...

 

That part is called the shank. Elevators and boy private parts have shafts.  It seems to be attempting to replicate a Klein made spange.  Klein used the thin/long attaching pins.  What I do not like is the fact the pins are sharpened to a point.  I don't remember this being an accepted feature.  

[Chris Boonzaier]

The sharpened pins are fine like that.

Shank! Thats thwe word....in the bottom right sector there should be a feint die flaw, a thin raised line running from the South West to North East.

If it has that I think the piece looks good to go.... (Their are fakes with the Die fault, but this one looks better than them)

As I said above, they are not really rare, there were far more made than were ever awarded.... I assume the Germans thought they would be awarding more, but time ran out....

[Snoman]

Best I can do.

[Paul R]

I do like the details and the shiny flat surfaces.  It has the characteristics of a Klein.  Based upon Chris' assessment and manufacturing attributes  I know from the Heer version, I believe it is a good sample.  

[Snoman]

Appreciate all the responses.

Steve

[Jock Auld]

Chris,

When did this hoard hit the market?

What is the base metal for these, is it tombak or Zinc?

Who bought them from the vetran, did he spread the joy or was it one dealer/auction house that moved them?

Are there pictures of his hoard all together or any provanance?

I have done a search but there is no reference to this find even on WAF? Was it in a book, if so which?

Just thinking a lot of what has be accepted and taken for granted has since been found wanting.

Product placement is and was not too difficult with the right names.

Did you meet the vet personally and see what he had, have you kept some pictures of that or was it before we were all armed with a pnone cam?

Paul,

If it looks like a Klein is there more than one accepted maker of this badge?

I am sorry I have become so cynical but not without grounds.

I am sure it is all well documented somewhere by the people that 'know' and I am only raking over cold coals but it may be a useful exercise for new collectors to learn the process that leads to the acceptance of an award that was late off the mark.  Indeed only really being rolled out by the KM when the Army was wrapping up issues.

[Jock Auld]

Nobody got any more info on this?  Are there 2 accepted types or more?  Was the hoard distributed in the US or perhaps in Germany by one of the big houses such as Weitze or the likes?  Is there a undisputed issued example with provenance somewhere?

[Bubba_Z]

Hi,

The clasp looks like very nice type 1 clasp -  with hand made internal cutouts.

Cheers,
Hubert

[Chris Boonzaier]

Sorry, been away for a few days,

It was about 1995 if I remember right. A family had leant some of their relatives bringbacks to a canadian local Museum and had no idea what they had and how much it was worth... what they did know was that one of the clasps was missing when they got their stuff back. This clasp was later sold to a US dealer by a Museum worker as far as I know. The family contacted a militaria shop in Toronto to enquire about the value of the missing item, and when they realised what the stuff was worth, they came in with a suitcase full of navy related items.

Toronto was a militaria Backwater in the 90s, and the items sold relatively cheaply, all snapped up in the blink of an eye. I was unfortunately late on the scene but managed to track down a number of clasp buyers and get a total of 4. I also remember a collector coming to visit me at home, he was in desperate need of EXACTLY CDN$ 200... he had a box of stuff he was willing to sell, all goodies from the navy hoarde. If I remember correctly there were a number of mint EK2 clasps in baggies, Many Oct 38 medals... But what grapped my attention was a 110% mint, absolute classic Aux Cruiser badge which I bought for $200. more he was not willing to sell as he needed.... exactly 200!

I did not realise there was any mystery about the Canadian Clasp hoarde? I think it has been long accepted that a tiny amount were awarded, but that Canadian Soldiers souveniered probably most of the factory production at the end of the war. They were simply in the right place at the right time.... The major German Naval Bases.

Suffice to say, these were considered super rare, I think in the early 90s German dealers had them for DM5 000! comparable to EUR5000 easily (Panzer wrappers were about DM2500 at the time.

The Canadian clasps more or less scythed the prices on these.

I think quite a few Canadian collectors will remember the "Navy wave" of the mis 90s...

[Jock Auld]

Chris,

What is the base metal for these, I have them too in the reference books but many of the dealer/authors have since been caught with their pants down so to speak.  When you look at the probable production dates, it was already forbidden to use metals that were priority for the armaments production.

Is there one accepted variant, did they only come from this Canadian bloke?

Is there any period documentation with an order for production etc?

The 90s was when a lot of junk was intoduced by sources various as you well know.  

In fact mid 90s was when such dealers as Weitze, Hermanns, Neimann and like had cornered the market and enjoyed an unscathed reputation.  People are much more aware these days and they do churn out some junk that is quite obvious and it makes me wonder how it is possible.

We don't seem to question anything anymore as collectors.

Still, it is a fine story and plausable but is it varfiable, did the Museum thief do any poridge, did it all hit the press, or only when the dealer bought it from him, which US dealer handled it, is that known?

 

 

[Norm F]

On 8/29/2016 at 19:31, Paul R said:

It has the characteristics of a Klein.  Based upon Chris' assessment and manufacturing attributes  I know from the Heer version, I believe it is a good sample.  

It's a long story, but these KM clasps are attributed to Juncker, not Klein, as the manufacturing characteristics match the "non-Klein" one-piece Heer clasps (which forensically shares some pin characteristics with the Juncker EK1 clasps) and also the Luftwaffe one-piece clasps for which Juncker-labelled packaging exists.

Not surprising given Juncker's status for higher end orders.

On 8/31/2016 at 13:29, Jock Auld said:

What is the base metal for these, is it tombak or Zinc?

They're Tombak.  Material restrictions in late wartime didn't apply to the higher orders (hence no zinc German Crosses)

On 9/5/2016 at 14:36, Jock Auld said:

Are there 2 accepted types or more?

There's only one manufacturer of the KM clasp known, but two variations based upon the trimming characteristics.  The "earlier" one, "Type 1" as alluded to by Hubert in an earlier post, has variable hand-cut internal cutouts whereas the "Type 2" (same die characteristics) used a standardized trimming die for the internal cutouts.

Best regards,

---Norm

Edited October 4, 2016 by Norm F

[Jock Auld]

Norm,

Are there not zinc core RK out threre or are those fake?

Is there a period paper trail to follow anywhere?

When would you think these went into production?

Best