A Dramatic Group to an Intel officer.....

[Chris Boonzaier]

Although the article is dramatically written.... has anyone ever heard of this...

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2226078/We-gunned-English-women-children--great-fun-Newly-published-transcripts-private-conversations-PoWs-prove.html

[QSAMIKE]

Good Morning Chris......

Yes I have heard of it before, the house and its story but not deep details, there was a TV show about it but I think that they said the transcripts of the conversations were classified for 101 years.......

If I remember rightly the host was David Jason it was part of a series on famous, not-so-famous and historical houses in Britain.....

Mike

 

 

Edited November 26, 2016 by QSAMIKE

[Chris Boonzaier]

Here are some more details....

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-20698098

[Chris Boonzaier]

The start of the journey for this small group is in the middle of WW1 when a Carl Ferdinand J transfered from the Royal Fusiliers to become a Signaller with the Royal Engineers, attached to GHQ ... He was part of "Draft 158" and the title of the photo is "Interpreters" (with inverted commas).... You can see that all services are included, So I am going to go out on a limb and guess that "Draft 158" was somehow connected to Military Intel

In the photo above all seem to have slides on the eppaulettes, but no cloth shoulder badges or collar badges... maybe that can help date the Photo...

This from the Great war forum seems to explain why he was initially a Fusilier....

 

" during WW1 British soldiers identified for Intelligence Corps linguist/translator duties, were posted for personnel management to the 10th Bn Royal Fusiliers "

I assume he was trained in Draft 158 and this was the men before they were posted to their new units, His Being the R.E. (from later photos I think he is top row, 2nd from the right)

[Chris Boonzaier]

Carl Ferdinand was commissioned in early 1940..... In June 1940 the Intelligence Corps was formed.... This seems to be a Photos of the new officers, the old NCOs still wearing their parent unit uniforms..... One with a MM, one with a DCM....

Carl Ferdinand seems to be the guy right in the middle with his hands in front of his chest....

This seems to be some of the group at a later date..... some faces are in both photos....

[Chris Boonzaier]

Karl Ferdinand was Estonian.... and seems to have moved back to Germany right after the War. He was naturalised as a British subject... and the records were sealed for 100 years!!

Reference:	HO 144/2826
Description:	Nationality and Naturalisation: J, Karl Ferdinand (known as Carl Ferdinand J), from Esthonia. Resident in Cologne. Certificate 10,623 issued 26 October 1923.
Date:	1923
Held by:	The National Archives, Kew
Former reference in its original department	442822
Legal status:	Public Record(s)
Closure status:	Closed Or Retained Document, Open Description
Access conditions:	Closed For 100 years
Record opening date:	01 January 2024

He died on the 24th of November 1948.... These two flags were in a chest with his photos.....

Thats all pretty interesting.... but I think what follows is more so.....

This is Colonel T.J. Kendrick.....

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2729778/How-unsung-hero-heart-Britains-eavesdropping-centres-Second-World-War-helped-saved-thousands-lives.html

[Chris Boonzaier]

From the national archives site......

This subseries (WO 208/3582-3748) contains interrogation reports of enemy prisoners of war during the Second World War undertaken by the Combined Services Detailed Interrogation Centre (UK) - C.S.D.I.C.(U.K.) for the period May 1942 to October 1945 and the Prisoner of War Interrogation Section (Home) - P.W.I.S.(H) for the overall period June 1944 to November 1945 (arranged in four separate subsubseries), and interviews by the Royal Patriotic School (R.P.S.) of foreign civilians arriving in the United Kingdom from abroad, from May 1941 to March 1945. The subseries, therefore, contains six separate runs (or subsubseries), as follows: WO 208/3582-3620: Combined Services Interrogation Centre (UK), May 1942 to October 1945. WO 208/3621-3622: Prisoner of War Interrogation Section (Home), June 1944 to November 1945. WO 208/3623-3629: Prisoner of War Interrogation Section (Home), Kempton Park, June 1944 to November 1945. WO 208/3630-3644: Prisoner of War Interrogation Section (Home), Lingfield Cage, June 1944 to March 1945. WO 208/3645-3662: Prisoner of War Interrogation Section (Home), London District Cage, June 1944 to November 1945. WO 208/3663-3748: Royal Patriotic School: interrogation of civilians arriving in UK from abroad, May 1941 to March 1945.
Date:	1941-1945
Unpublished finding aids:	For further information, see 'The Story of M.I.19' (from which the accompanying Administrative History information has largely been extracted) in WO 208/4970.
Administrative / biographical background:	Combined Services Detailed Interrogation Centre (UK) - C.S.D.I.C.(U.K.), and Prisoner of War Interrogation Section (Home) - (P.W.I.S.(H)) Pre-1944: Before the Second World War it had been agreed by the services that a Combined Services Detailed Interrogation Centre (C.S.D.I.C.) should be formed, under the responsibility and control of the War Office, to deal with selected enemy prisoners of war of all three services. Within 24 hours of the outbreak of the war, the nucleus of the C.S.D.I.C. had opened in the Tower of London (under the title of M.I.1.h.). In October 1939, a specific written charter was produced for C.S.D.I.C.(U.K.), to submit selected prisoners of war, either Naval, Military or Air Force, or internees, to a comprehensive interrogation by specially qualified officers. On 12 December 1939 the Centre moved to Trent Park, near Barnet, Hertfordshire (where known as 'Cockfosters Camp'), and in 1942 to No.1 Distribution Centre (DC), Latimer House, Buckinghamshire (on 15 July) and No.2 DC at Wilton House, Beaconsfield, Buckinghamshire (on 13 December). No.2 DC was used primarily for Italian prisoners (previously interrogated at a mobile unit at Newmarket), most of the German prisoners being handled by No.1 DC. At the time when No.1 DC was established on 15 July 1942, Trent Park became a base camp for German senior prisoners of war. In June 1940, a series of prisoner of war cages were planned and the Prisoner of War Interrogation Section (Home), (P.W.I.S.(H)), was formed to operate at these cages, to perform detailed interrogation on Army questions, and to select Army prisoners of war for C.S.D.I.C.(U.K.). Initially the unit was spread over the entire UK, but eventually came to be based at nine distribution centres. Enemy prisoners of war were landed at ports throughout the United Kingdom and taken to the nearest cage; at these cages prisoners were also selected for further investigation by C.S.D.I.C.(U.K.). Effectively the P.W.I.S.(H) units acted as transit camps and sorting centres where incoming enemy prisoners of war were identified, processed, graded and interrogated to extract information or to establish whether the prisoner merited further more detailed long-range interrogation by C.S.D.I.C.(U.K.). Hence, the P.W.I.S.(H) units acted as a first (brief) line of interrogation and the C.S.D.I.C.(U.K.) as a second line conducting further investigations. From 1943, it was agreed all selected prisoners of war were available for joint (British and US) interrogation irrespective of their captors. Post-1944: During 1944 preliminary planning had started in respect of a prisoner of war interrogation organisation for the invasion of Europe. The Ministry of Health required that all prisoners of war arriving from the continent should be disinfected, and it was agreed the there should be two ‘bottle-necks’ for all prisoners evacuated, with Kempton Park racecourse (Sunbury on Thames, Middlesex), to be used for British captured prisoners and Devizes (Wiltshire) for US captured prisoners. Each of these collecting points were designed to handle some 2,000 prisoners per 24 hours. For the British captured prisoners, in order to meet intelligence requirements, arrangements were concluded whereby up to 100 selected prisoners were conveyed to Lingfield Cage (Surrey) for preliminary detailed interrogation and selection for C.S.D.I.C.(U.K.). In addition, it was agreed that certain special categories, especially officer prisoners, could be transferred direct from Kempton Park to London District Cage and to C.S.D.I.C.(U.K.). At London District Cage (based at Kensington Palace Gardens) interrogations were therefore made of known and suspected war criminals and Nazis, and high-ranking officers. The plan required for Kempton Park, Lingfield and London District Cage, to be manned by P.W.I.S.(H) officers to undertake the screening, preliminary interrogations and selection of prisoners of war. In addition, C.S.D.I.C.(U.K.) sent forward selection officers to Kempton Park. The interrogation reports written by P.W.I.S.(H) officers were identified by the number starting with P.W.I.S.(H)/L.D.C./, with ‘K.P.’ and ‘L.F.’ replacing ‘L.D.C.’ (London District Cage) on those reports produced at Kempton Park or Lingfield respectively. After the cessation of hostilities in Europe, C.S.D.I.C.(U.K.) remained busy on selected prisoners, including a number of high-ranking German officers. In this period, P.W.I.S.(H) concentrated on the examination of prisoners of war regarding war crimes. The policy was laid down, however, that active interrogation must cease as soon as possible, and on 7 November 1945 the C.S.D.I.C.(U.K.) was finally closed.

Here is a Photo 5 5 Intel officers, in the middle Col. T.J. Kendrick, on the right is Carl Ferdinand Juulman, wearing his WW1 pair.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Spymaster-Secret-Kendrick-Helen-Fry/dp/1500418838

Here are the medals awarded to C.F.J. ,

[Chris Boonzaier]

It is very possible that he never claimed his WW2 awards,

[Chris Boonzaier]

He was born in 1885...

https://www.geni.com/people/Karl-Ferdinand-Juulmann/6000000033114384898

HGis wife was from Cologne, he must have met and married her just after the war, he was in Cologne at the time...

https://www.geni.com/people/Christina-Sibilla-Juulmann/6000000033114475843

Hi Estonian Registry card, I assume from 1920....

[Chris Boonzaier]

An Interesting Tidbit.... Kendrick served in the Field Intel Security during WW1 and was posted to Cologne at the end of the war as part of MI1(c) ... just by a huge coincidence, that is where Juulman landed up after the war as well.... I wonder if he was actively working for British Intel after the war as well?

 

[dante]

My thanks to Chris to allow me to be the next custodian as well as his excellent article here http://gmic.co.uk/topic/69807-a-dramatic-group-to-an-intel-officer/

to follow on from Chris's research;  

WW1 Pair to Private 236905 C.F. Juulman Royal Engineers, 

Later Captain Karl Ferdinand 

(known as Carl Ferdinand) Carl Juulman, Served with the Royal Engineers, Signal Service in France and then with the 45th Bn Royal Fusiliers for Russia as an Interpreter.

Great war pair to Private 236905 C.F. Juulman Royal Engineers. His Medal Index Card has him moving to the Royal Fusiliers as GS/128838, Private, City of London Regiment (The regimental number is consistent with the 45th battalion in Russia) in France.
 
Prior to Russia he served with the Royal Engineers Wireless Depot as Sapper 236905 and later in G.H.Q. Signals Company. R.E.

Born in Russian, Estonia in 1885, (I have yet to find out his residence in the UK prior to enlisting (or when).However what I have is a rare group photo of "interpreters" "Draft 158" that came with the group, note the officer in the middle "H C Platts"
Note; the MIC for Lt Harold Clayton Platts (centre of photo) has his only service as North Russia, winning the MC, with 385th Field Company R.E.

This would have been a draft (158) of volunteers to serve in Russia.
No note of his war service in France is recorded however the medal roll has him as a signaller working in GHQ in France; as such he would have made some contact with many British army intelligence officers.

In 1920 we have an Estonian registration card as well as his Naturalization details noted in the London Gazette December 1923
"Juulmann, Karl Ferdinand (known as Karl Ferdinand Juulman); Estonia; Attached to Intelligence Department, British Army
on the Rhine; Intelligence Office, Cologne, British Army of the Rhine. 13 November, 1923"

The head of which was Colonel Thomas Henry Kendrick SIS/Mi6.
In 1931 he lived in Hornsey then to 8 Cholmeley Park London, N.6 until 1934

In 1934 we find him living in Berlin as Charles Juulman, address  30, Bamberger Str. 15, B 6 Cornelius 02 91 Berlin until 1938 (conjecture but it could be he worked with Frank Foley https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Foley)

In 1939 again registered as Charles Juulman, working as an "Examiner" Passport Office British Embassy, Bern, Switzerland.
Pass port offices were used as cover for SIS/Mi6.

Carl was commissioned into the Intelligence Corps in 1940 and is noted in the MII9 and Combined Services Detailed Interrogation Centre (CSDIC) Archives as working at Latimer House http://amershamhistory.info/research/wars/latimer-house/  he is also identified in Helen Fry’s book on Kendrick “Spymaster: The secret life of Kendrick”
To confirm his work and how close to Kendrick here is a photo of the SIS team working at CSDIC, 

Demobilised in 1945, Carl died in 1948 in London

With so little information but with many clues it can be assumed that he was in England at the time of enlistment and although a "Foreigner" Russia was an ally, we also know that "Russians" were actively recruited into the British army especially the "Judeans" and "Zion Mule Corps", his language skills would have been used in "Signals intercepts" and we know that it was these language skills took him to Russia in 1919.

We know he was naturalized in 1923 and working with British Intelligence in Cologne, the head of was Kendrick.

We know he used the forename Charles and the he was in Berlin in the late 1930's and working in Passport control in Switzerland just before the war, his wartime service in CSDIC at Latimer house is also confirmed.

So did he meet Kendrick in France in 1918, was he recruited into Mi6 before Russia or on his return or just an agent for them, was he taken on full time after naturalization in 1923 and then as part of the anti-communist/anti Nazi counter intelligence ? Was his work in Berlin and later in Bern part of Foley's and Kendrick's known activities in getting Jewish refugees out of Germany...and lastly was he involved in the interrogation of Hess.

Welcome your thoughts     

 

[Chris Boonzaier]

I am glad these landed up in the right hands... albeit on the wrong continent! :-)

[dante]

And safe hands....interesting Russian connection?

[Chris Boonzaier]

Indeed... i had not seen the Russian connection.

Does Helen Fry's book have anything good on him? I thought she would mention him

[dante]

No..yes not in the book but annexed as C F JOOLMAN Captain, Intelligence Corps, found this as well

[dante]

On 11/26/2016 at 14:45, Chris Boonzaier said:

He was born in 1885...

https://www.geni.com/people/Karl-Ferdinand-Juulmann/6000000033114384898

HGis wife was from Cologne, he must have met and married her just after the war, he was in Cologne at the time...

https://www.geni.com/people/Christina-Sibilla-Juulmann/6000000033114475843

Hi Estonian Registry card, I assume from 1920....

Card attached with his photo says that he was on the way to Germany. He was “in service” (probably not military but governmental instead). His trade is listed “Businessman” and his religious “Luthern”. He came from County Kurtna. It is about 50 km to south from Tallinn.

[Egorka]

Cool research! I am envious!

[Ulsterman]

Great thread!  Just finished Soenke Neitzels' book on this episode.