4th SS Polizei Panzergrenadier Division

[bigjarofwasps]

Ladies/Gents,

Has anyone got an interest in this unit?

Can you tell me what if, any tanks the unit used? Where these tanks part of this division, or did they just support tanks from another division? 

[bigjarofwasps]

The only pictures I can find are from the Russian front and  feature captured Soviet armour (BT7 & T26C.

I'm aware that at the start of the war they were issued with captured Czech equipment, don't know whether this included armour.

Did they have any armour of their own (German)?

Edited March 22, 2017 by bigjarofwasps

[bigjarofwasps]

There seems to be very little reading material on this division and that, that is available, costs a fortune, certainly more than I'd ever consider paying for a book!!!!

[Spasm]

Made up from capable members of the Ordnungspolizei (ordinary policemen?) in Oct 1939 and assigned to the Waffen SS but most not holding SS membership. 

Fought at the Maginot Line in June 1940. Then joined Army Group North in the advance on Leningrad, involved in heavy combat in the first half of 1942 in the Volkhov River sector. Fierce fighting in both the 1st and 2nd Battles of Lake Ladoga late '42 and early '43.

Most of the Division then withdrawn to Greece to rebuild while a combat group remained behind in the North until early '44 when it rejoined the Division. The whole Division was involved in anti-partisan operations in Greece until it was committed against the Red Army in the Banat (an ethnic German area of Yugoslavia) in Oct '44.

Withdrew into Slovakia in late Jan '45 and transported North to Stettin and then onto the Danzig area and involved in heavy combat. It was evacuated by sea in April and thrown into the Oder front North of Berlin. Retreated to the Elbe River surrendering to American forces in early May '45.

The Division was made up of:

SS Polizei Panzer Grenadier Regt 7 (Former SS Polizei Infantry Regt 1)

SS Polizei Panzer Grenadier Regt 8 (Former SS Polizei Infantry Regt 2)

SS Polizei Panzer Grenadier Regt 3 (late 1939 - early 1943)

SS Polizei Artillery Regt 4

SS Polizei Flak Battalion 4

SS Polizei Armoured Signal Battalion 4

SS Polizei Panzer Battalion 4 (formed from SS Polizei Assault Gun Battalion 4 in July 1944)

SS Polizei Armoured Recon Battalion 4

SS Polizei Anti-tank Battalion 4

SS Polizei Armoured Combat Engineer Battalion 4

SS Polizei Assault Gun Battalion 4 (retitled SS Polizei Panzer Battalion 4 in July 1944)

SS Field Replacement Battalion 4

You may already have this info but it looks like a couple of armoured battalions but I'll do a bit more digging in the few books on the shelf.

Cheers, Steve

 

 

 

Damn, all above is available on Google. 

Should've checked before I took a book off of the shelf. Pffft. I'll get my coat.

[bigjarofwasps]

Thanks Steve, that's very interesting!!!!

 

With regards to...

SS Polizei Panzer Battalion 4 (formed from SS Polizei Assault Gun Battalion 4 in July 1944)

SS Polizei Armoured Recon Battalion 4

 

I assume the Panzer Battalion would have had STUG's and the like and the Recon would have had the Panzer IV and that sort of thing.

Am I right in thinking that they wouldn't have had Tiger's and Panther's? 

 

[Spasm]

Yes, that's what I'd be thinking. Probably no Schwere (heavy) tank Battalions but I'll keep looking. There's at least one photo of the Stugs with 4th SS riding on board from the Bundesarchive:

Stug IV with riding 4th SS near Lake Balaton, Jan '45. 

[bigjarofwasps]

Thanks again Spasm,

 

Found this......

 

SS leader Heinrich Himmler had in 1936 the power of the German police and in October 1939 he transferred 15,000 from Ordnungspolizei to form a military division. The new police division was used in the fall and winter of 1939 for occupation duties in the newly conquered Poland . In February 1940 intensified military training, but compared to the other military SS troops at this time was the police division is not of the same caliber. Its soldiers were older, less trained and less ideologically inspired. In addition, the division is equipped with older and captured weapons.

 

Would be interesting to know how many of the original Ordnungspolizei survived with the division during the entire war? I assume that casualty replacements would have been obtained from the general manpower reserves of Germany as apposed to a continual pool of Ordnungspolizei?

 

Especially when you consider their loses on 27th June 1941(The division lost 2 000 men in the bloody frontal assault). 

 

 

 

 

[bigjarofwasps]

Panzerspähwagen of the Polizei Division. 

 

Edited March 23, 2017 by bigjarofwasps

[bigjarofwasps]

Can anyone identify the numbered badges for me? 

I suspect that the Polizei Division (per say), ceased to exist in it's original form (i.e made up of  Ordnungspolizei ), in August 1941, where the division saw action near Luga. During heavy fighting for the Luga bridgehead the division lost over 2,000 soldiers including the commander, Arthur Mülverstadt. 

Has anyone got any information on the Division involvement in this battle? 

[Spasm]

I believe (always say that as there's always someone who is more knowledgeable than me) that they are:

1 is the ribbon for the War Merit Cross

2 is the Kuban Arm Shield

3 is the SS member's tunic breast badge for those who were not entitled to wear the SS collar badge

Cheers, Steve

[bigjarofwasps]

1 hour ago, Spasm said:

I believe (always say that as there's always someone who is more knowledgeable than me) that they are:

1 is the ribbon for the War Merit Cross

2 is the Kuban Arm Shield

3 is the SS member's tunic breast badge for those who were not entitled to wear the SS collar badge

Cheers, Steve

Thanks Steve!! Re number 1, sorry I meant the metal breast badge as apposed to the medal ribbon. 

[Spasm]

Ah, ok.  That's a Close Combat Assault Clasp. Could be Bronze Silver or Gold. 

[ostprussenmann_new]

12 hours ago, bigjarofwasps said:

Can anyone identify the numbered badges for me? 

I suspect that the Polizei Division (per say), ceased to exist in it's original form (i.e made up of  Ordnungspolizei ), in August 1941, where the division saw action near Luga. During heavy fighting for the Luga bridgehead the division lost over 2,000 soldiers including the commander, Arthur Mülverstadt. 

Has anyone got any information on the Division involvement in this battle? 

beautiful uniform.  Is this something that you put together or is there a story behind it?

[bigjarofwasps]

12 hours ago, Spasm said:

Ah, ok.  That's a Close Combat Assault Clasp. Could be Bronze Silver or Gold. 

Thanks Steve.

6 hours ago, ostprussenmann_new said:

beautiful uniform.  Is this something that you put together or is there a story behind it?

No, just something I stumbled across whilst surfing the internet for more information on this unit. 

[bigjarofwasps]

11 hours ago, ostprussenmann_new said:

beautiful uniform.  Is this something that you put together or is there a story behind it?

 

 

Looking a little more closely at it, I'm not sure just how authentic it is? Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe the anti-partisan badge was never issued to anyone, other than the one Himmler awarded to himself for some reason.

 

That being said what badges would the 4th have qualified for? 

 

Would they have qualified for the Kuban shoulder shield? 

 

 

Edited March 25, 2017 by bigjarofwasps

[peter monahan]

I'm late to this party but my vague recollections, from an interest in  German WWII armour many many years ago, is that second line divisions - which included, as Spasm says, the police divisions, would have been fairly unlikely to have gotten Tigers, which were always in very short supply.  Just my tuppence worth, though.

Interesting uniform.

[Spasm]

The whole lot, including medals, is about $300 from a re-enactment supplier. Depending on what size jacket you'd like 

http://www.surcompany.com/listing1-waffenss/sspolizei/tunic3.html

The 4.SS were mostly around the Balkans at the time of the defence of the Bridgehead. So I wouldn't have thought they would have been entitled to the Kuban Shield. However, the owner could have transferred in from another unit who were entitled or even a member visiting the area for official or even non-official duties could have got roped in. Award of the shield wasn't just the 60 days for being there, it was also for being wounded or involved in a major operation at the bridgehead. 

They lost their police badges and heer eagles in 1942 having been 'adopted' into the Waffen SS. Which, I suppose, is when they got their SS arm eagles. I have seen on a forum that they had at least 2 Panthers later in the war - both of which were broken down (there's a surprise). But I suspect mostly Stugs and Panzer IVs but they also had Panzerjager regt later on so maybe a few tank killers as well.

 

 

[bigjarofwasps]

3 hours ago, Spasm said:

The whole lot, including medals, is about $300 from a re-enactment supplier. Depending on what size jacket you'd like 

http://www.surcompany.com/listing1-waffenss/sspolizei/tunic3.html

The 4.SS were mostly around the Balkans at the time of the defence of the Bridgehead. So I wouldn't have thought they would have been entitled to the Kuban Shield. However, the owner could have transferred in from another unit who were entitled or even a member visiting the area for official or even non-official duties could have got roped in. Award of the shield wasn't just the 60 days for being there, it was also for being wounded or involved in a major operation at the bridgehead. 

They lost their police badges and heer eagles in 1942 having been 'adopted' into the Waffen SS. Which, I suppose, is when they got their SS arm eagles. I have seen on a forum that they had at least 2 Panthers later in the war - both of which were broken down (there's a surprise). But I suspect mostly Stugs and Panzer IVs but they also had Panzerjager regt later on so maybe a few tank killers as well.

 

 

Thanks again Spasm, such an interesting subject, what a shame there is virtually no books about them!!

 

 

 

[bigjarofwasps]

4 hours ago, Spasm said:

 

 

Found these, which I assume to be early war uniform examples?

 

 

 

[Spasm]

These are the books that are worth a look. Volume II is probably the better, given that it is the later war period.

Pretty expensive but if you have a search they can be had a lot cheaper - I've seen them for less than $50 on ebay. 

Sorry I don't have them. I am tempted though.

Edited March 25, 2017 by Spasm

[bigjarofwasps]

To any experts on the subject who my be viewing my thread and pulling their hair out, please forgive my ignorance, but I believe that there was something also again called the Polizei Panzer Company and not to be confused with the 4th. They appear to have been along the same lines of the 4th i.e formed from en from Ordnungspolizei. They do appear to have been involved in combat as well as normal policing duties, but they also appear to have had heavier tanks, than their SS counterparts? No Tigers or Panthers granted (that I can find), but certainly captured Russian armour. http://beutepanzer.ru/Beutepanzer/su/t-34/t-34hex/police.htm

 

 

Edited March 26, 2017 by bigjarofwasps

[bigjarofwasps]

Found this book as well (again very expensive), but would appear to hold the key.....................

[ostprussenmann_new]

On 3/25/2017 at 10:24, bigjarofwasps said:

 

 

Looking a little more closely at it, I'm not sure just how authentic it is? Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe the anti-partisan badge was never issued to anyone, other than the one Himmler awarded to himself for some reason.

 

That being said what badges would the 4th have qualified for? 

 

Would they have qualified for the Kuban shoulder shield? 

 

 

There were a series of APB's awarded mainly to the 24th WSS Kartsjager Division.  I dont have my book in front of me, but the numbers were really low.  8x Gold (and special variations), and a couple thousand in Silver and Bronze.  Most APB's that you find now are fakes.  If you find an authentic one you are looking between $2500 USD and up.

I will never trash another man's treasure, but just from the picture that I see, having a Gold CCC (very rare) is something that I question, especially with that patina (looks too new).  You really need to look at the liner, cuff title, and other things.  There is a specific stitch patter to the cuff titles, but a big indicator that doesn't take long to establish is hitting it with a black light.  If the white glows it is a repro.

Hope this helps brother.

[Odulf]

On ‎25‎-‎3‎-‎2017 at 16:26, Spasm said:

The whole lot, including medals, is about $300 from a re-enactment supplier. Depending on what size jacket you'd like 

http://www.surcompany.com/listing1-waffenss/sspolizei/tunic3.html

The 4.SS were mostly around the Balkans at the time of the defence of the Bridgehead. So I wouldn't have thought they would have been entitled to the Kuban Shield. However, the owner could have transferred in from another unit who were entitled or even a member visiting the area for official or even non-official duties could have got roped in. Award of the shield wasn't just the 60 days for being there, it was also for being wounded or involved in a major operation at the bridgehead. 

They lost their police badges and heer eagles in 1942 having been 'adopted' into the Waffen SS. Which, I suppose, is when they got their SS arm eagles. I have seen on a forum that they had at least 2 Panthers later in the war - both of which were broken down (there's a surprise). But I suspect mostly Stugs and Panzer IVs but they also had Panzerjager regt later on so maybe a few tank killers as well.

 

 

To my knowledge, they had SS-eagles on the left sleeve from the beginning. I have Original photos of Polizei-Division soldiers in May/June 1940, wearing these but without the cuff band.

[bigjarofwasps]

Who are these then?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/4th_SS_Police_Regiment

I assume something different again and not to be confused with the 4th Polizei Division?

Edited March 28, 2017 by bigjarofwasps