Austria-Hungary What's In A Name?

[Guest Rick Research]

Rittmeister Hans von Gr?ber (at least it was written in both alphabets!!! ) "of the Imp. & Roy. Austro-Hungarian Army" received the Officer's Class "on the war ribbon" of the Bulgarian Military Merit Order 20 November 1917.

[Guest Rick Research]

Snazzy crest

and embossed seal specific to the Military Merit Order

Glenn found this guy some time ago-- and "von Gr?ber" was practically his nickname "for short!"

[Bob Hunter]

Very nice document. Love the detail in the embossed emblem.

[Glenn J]

Ah Rick,

I remember him well

Rittmeister Johannes Gr?ber Edler von Seelingsheim of Dragonerregiment Herzog von Lothringen Nr. 7

Leutnant: 1 September 1902

Oberleutnant: 1 May 1909

Rittmeister: 1 November 1914

Regards

Glenn

[Alex K]

Hi Rick just noticed this posting, nice piece of paperwork and interesting to see, Is that his real name?

the reason for sticking my nose in is that I have the Attached document and decoration which matches yours, albeit different grade and period. The reason for my question is that unfortunately my knowledge of the cyrillic alphabet is more or less non existent now, although my father and grandfather etc came from that way. can you or someone you know translate the name of the person to whom this was awarded?

The actual document is, as you have said in your posting much to large for my scanner so I've had to scan two halves and post edit them together thats why I've also attached the name which may not be to clear on the full document.

Are there any records of these awards and as to why the recipient may have received them?

The decoration itself is of extremely fine quality but as yet I havn't found a maker mark, the ribbon is original together with a modern replacement, unfortunately no case.. my embossing in contrast to yours shows the civil version of the order

any help greatly appreciated technically I suppose I should have put this in the central European form as its neither Austrian or hungarian!

REGARDS

Edited April 18, 2007 by Alex K

[Alex K]

name

[Alex K]

Medal

[Alex K]

medal 2

[Carol I]

can you or someone you know translate the name of the person to whom this was awarded?

The name appears in Latin letters just as in Rick's document: "Le 1r Secr?taire Alexandre Zamfiresco". No other information is given, but I guess he was a Romanian working at the Embassy in Bulgaria: First Secretary Alexandru Zamfirescu (written in the typical French spelling used at that time).

The decoration itself is of extremely fine quality but as yet I havn't found a maker mark, the ribbon is original together with a modern replacement, unfortunately no case.. my embossing in contrast to yours shows the civil version of the order

The badge you have is the Commander's cross of the Order for Civil Merit (a completely different order than Rick's Order for Military Merit). Take a look in Bulgarian medals and ribbon bars for more images of the Bulgarian orders.

[Alex K]

Hi Carol I Thanks for the information, I didn't realise that it was latin, I just assumed that it was cyrillic.

I thought that the order of merit came in two distinct versions, a civil and a military, the crosses being the same basic shape, but different colour and the addition of swords for the military version.

regards

Alex K

[Carol I]

I thought that the order of merit came in two distinct versions, a civil and a military, the crosses being the same basic shape, but different colour and the addition of swords for the military version.

No, they were two different orders. The Order for Civil Merit had been established in 1891, while the Order for Military Merit had been established in 1900. The latter had two versions, peacetime and wartime. The Order for Merit was a completely different order established in 1883.

[Alex K]

Interesting that, I never realised that they were to distinct orders

thanks for the info

Regards

[Carol I]

Interesting that, I never realised that they were to distinct orders

Actually there were three of them:

- Order for Merit (1883)

- Order for Civil Merit (1891)

- Order for Military Merit (1900)

Take a look on Dave Danner's site for images of all three.

[Alex K]

Thanks for the link. It does indeed say that they run parallel to each other so are infact two and not one, with two divisions as I had previously thought.

regards

Alex

[Alex K]

Just to add to the confusion, H Taprell Dorling in his book "Ribbons and Medals" seems to indicate that they are infact part of the same order but two divisions, ie civil and military,

any ideas?

regards

Alex

[Alex K]

ribbons

[Carol I]

Just to add to the confusion, H Taprell Dorling in his book "Ribbons and Medals" seems to indicate that they are infact part of the same order but two divisions, ie civil and military,

any ideas?

He's obviously wrong. They are different orders.

[Carol I]

I have just noticed that the Bulgarian Order for Military Merit bears on the reverse the founding date of the Bulgarian Order for Civil Merit (2 August 1891). While this detail confuses things instead of clearing them, the two Bulgarian orders appear to be referred to as two different awards rather than two divisions of the same award.

[Alex K]

I have just noticed that the Bulgarian Order for Military Merit bears on the reverse the founding date of the Bulgarian Order for Civil Merit (2 August 1891). While this detail confuses things instead of clearing them, the two Bulgarian orders appear to be referred to as two different awards rather than two divisions of the same award.

Hi Carol I, that info does seem to muddy the waters a little more. I am however now slightly more inclined to the view that they are two distinct awards, but running in parallel with each other.

thanks for the update

regards

Alex

[Carol I]

I am however now slightly more inclined to the view that they are two distinct awards, but running in parallel with each other.

This is my impression too. In the end of the 19th century they realised that they do not have a military correspondent of the Order for Civil Merit, so they established the Order for Military Merit. Probably the 1891 date was supposed to strengthen the fact that the two orders were equally ranked, in spite of the fact that they were destined to two different categories of awardees.

[922F]

Gentlemen,

I come late to this discussion. Bulgarian archival sources on this matter exist and are quoted in circa 1998-2004 works by Pavlov, Denkov and Petrov. Prince Ferdinand I (and his predecessor, Prince Alexander) had constitutional problems when instituting awards because a stricture in the 1878 constitution permitted just one purely military order and forbade other decorations. Ferdinand founded the Princely Bulgarian Order of Civil Merit on August 2, 1891 for civilians only. This because the military had not only the Military Bravery Order but also two divisions of the St. Alexander Order while civil folk had only one division of St. Alexander. Also, Ferdinand liked Pisan/Urdy crosses as well as convulted award structures.

However, by the end of the decade, pressure on the exisiting purely "military" orders threatened their devaluation. Ferdinand sent a Rescript of 18 May 1900 to his Orders-Chancellor that when translated reads as follows (most accessible & in English is at P 129, Pavlov's Bulgarian Orders & Medals, Sofia, 2002) "As a sign of particuliar recognition to our brave army, the Order for Civil Merit shall be awarded from now on to military men as well, whereas (the) adequate modification in the Statutes, name, and insignia (signs) shall be introduced". Most scholars agree that this was a way to work around the constitutional problem. No formal governmental decree approved by the Bulgarian Parliament describing the new order ever existed. Ferdinand took the same route in 1908-09 when he set up the Order of Sts. Cyril & Methodius--that time he ran into Parliamentary (Sobranje) opposition.

Formal amendments were subsequently made to Order of Civil Merit statutes by September 1900. A Rescript dated November 12 1900 is the first document found to date that describes the Order of Military Merit as such. Apparently, for once, Ferdinand did not personally get entangled in sorting out this issue. Bulgarian sources name these two Orders with the same nomenclature (Order of National Merit) until about 1912. The register of awardees is divided into civil and military personnel. During the Balkan Wars, the names we use emerged and seperate registers apparently were kept from Summer, 1913. Post WWI Bulgarian materials clearly refer to these as two distinct Orders.

Sidelights:

Replacement of the Bulgar Princely crown with the Czarist crown for Bulgarian State Insignia is generally held to have taken place in 1908 as a symbol that Turkish sovereign authority was entirely rejected. However, no genuine examples of the Order of Military Merit with the Princely crown ever existed--this according to archival materials noted by Pavlov, Denkov and Petrov. They cite design and supply records. Thus, Bulgarian sources state that the Military Merit Order used the Czarist crown suspension from the Order's inception.

I have not seen those archives. I have seen 2-3 Military Merit pieces over the years that have Princely crowns. It is clear to me that these examples were fakes as they were pristine Boris type badges with corroded bronze-gilt Princely crowns.

Civil Merit Order pieces known to have been awarded in 1905 did have the Princely crown suspension.

Photos and Cartes de Visite showing people wearing both the Civil and Military Merit Orders are hard to come by. An English gentleman who sold off his impressive Bulgarian collection on eBay over the past 18 months offered just a few out of probably 1,000 images. It appeared that military wore equal grades of the Military Merit Order before the Civil Merit Order and that civilians reversed that order. I believe at least one major wore a CMO officer before a MMO officer (without war decoration) but after a MMO officer with war decoration. Unfortunately I did not save that image.

I hope this information is useful.